**NS Roleplay Symposium 2017**
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative” (Late Hour)
TIME: 7 PM EST, Wednesday, July 12th
Good evening, people!. I’m Zark, your panel moderator.
This evening’s topic, “Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative (Late Hour)”, is fairly straight-forward.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us which subforum you haunt, as well as the meaning of life.
BEGIN
::
Kyrusia - Today at 6:00 PM
I'm Kyru. NS Game Mod, N&I RP Mentor specializing in FT, and I oversee the Mentor Program.
Gren - Today at 6:00 PM
I'm Gren, P2TM resident, and the meaning of life is bullshit.
Vocenae - Today at 6:00 PM
I am Vocenae, I'm an FT player and I spend way too much time in II. Also the meaning of life is pie.
Swith - Today at 6:00 PM
Hi, I'm Swith. I am NOT modding this panel. YAY! You can usually find me in P2TM. P2TM is, of course, the meaning of life (when not 42).
Kyrusia - Today at 6:01 PM
Meaning of life? TO REVEL IN THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS!
Obv.
Ghant - Today at 6:01 PM
Hello everyone! I'm Ghant, veteran N&I Roleplayer specializing in PT and MT, with a great love for worldbuilding! The meaning of life is the Goat. :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 6:01 PM
(P2TM is love, P2TM is life)
And Question 1 is a heavy one! "What are the fundamentals of a narrative?", asked by Sailor.
Giovenith - Today at 6:03 PM
It's me, the Lady Gio of P2TM, let's get started.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:03 PM
Second-string panelist Reploid Productions, better caffinated and less distracted than this morning. :wink: Longtime RP, writer (fanfic and otherwise,) infamous NS mod, and all around neeeerd.
Ghant - Today at 6:04 PM
Q1: For me, the fundamentals of a narrative consist of telling a compelling story that is both fun to write and engaging to the reader, and provides some sort of enjoyment for everyone involved from a literary perspective. That involves detailed settings, a rich backstory, an immersive in game world and dynamic characters that the readers are invested in.
Gren - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: Something has to be happening, first of all. Even if its just an internal monologue.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: At its core, any narrative is about conflict, even the most slice-of-lifey variety. A problem is encountered, and the characters involved go about resolving that problem. That problem can be a huge external thing (war, doomsday meteor, etc,) or it can be a small, character-driven one (characters overcoming personal issues in order to meet a challenge.) Or anywhere in between the two extremes.
Giovenith - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: In a basic reading/writing class, you will be taught that a traditional narrative involves a beginning, escalation, climax, and deescalation. Generally narratives are favored by readers if they contain some sort of message of thoughtful themes for the reader to play with.
Swith - Today at 6:06 PM
Q1 Well, if a narrative is a series of events told in story form, then the fundamentals you need for it are the plot and setting and character/s. ... and Gio beat me to the rest.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:07 PM
Q1: Structure/flow, characterization, atmosphere, consistency, and conflict. Especially the latter. There is almost always some form of conflict, as conflict drives plot - it provides impetus to all/everything involved. No matter what the nature of it is: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Self, Man vs. Nature. Likewise, if one is including an overarching theme, motiff, aesthetic, or "moral," imparting and providing competing perspectives relative to such are important, allowing the reader/RP partner to come at and view said theme/motiff/etc. from many different angles.
Agy - Today at 6:07 PM
Coming in late. Hi, I'm Agy, and I hang out in P2TM
Question 1: A narrative has a beginning, middle, and end, centered around a conflict with identifiable characters.
In short, if you can imagine it as some kind of film or tv piece, it's probably got the basic structure of a narrative.
Gren - Today at 6:07 PM
Really, I think Reppy hit the nail on the head. Its about conflict. That's what I was trying to get at, because anytime something happens, there's a conflict, somewhere.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:07 PM
Also, an excellent and highly recommended storytelling resource is "The Writers Journey" by Christopher Vogler. Much more accessible and understandable than the classic writings on the Hero's Journey
Vocenae - Today at 6:07 PM
Q1: These guys have it right. The purpose of a narrative is to tell a story. Be that story about massive fleets flying through space or about Ms. Martha's two boys that won't stop fighting, there has to be something carrying it forward. Introduction and exploration of themes, characters, motivations, so on and so forth.
Zark - Today at 6:08 PM
The next one, Question 2, is asked by Ched: "How should exposition be best introduced to players? Like in many chunky bunches here and there? A nice fine stream that adheres to where the group is in the story's plot? Or something else you have in mind that you often personally do?"
Gren - Today at 6:09 PM
Q2: Personally, I go with an internal monologue, mixed with actual dialogue and actions.
Agy - Today at 6:10 PM
Question 2: As with most things, it depends on your style.
Generally, peppering exposition in with action and plot-movement catches player's attention and avoids them getting bored and their eyes glazing over after the fifth or so paragraph about local fauna and flora. However, long chunks of exposition can also be useful if one is trying to set up a specific tone or image in the scene for players to react to.
It's really up to you. My personal preference is to open scenes with exposition and transition smoothly into more action and dialog, with more exposition peppering the back-and-forth between players as their characters ask questions and reveal different details about the people and features of the scene.
Gren - Today at 6:10 PM
Anything that needs to be expressed but can't be conveyed in dialogue or action, can be internally monologued.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:10 PM
Q2: I prefer to keep the exposition brief and relevant to whatever is going on in the story at that point in time. Huge blocks of exposition are tougher for readers and players to digest, and can bog down the storytelling a lot. One of my gripes about A Song of Ice and Fire or the Wheel of Time books, actually- waaaaaay too much time describing inconsequential things, such as detailing the clothing people are wearing or the food on the table.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:10 PM
Q2: Your best choice is to minimize raw exposition as much as possible: show, don't tell. That being said, given the unique circumstances of storytelling via play-by-post roleplaying and the fundamentally collaborative nature of this venture, this does not always work out.
Best option is always to have the character unwravel the world for you as much as possible - the characters and simply the way the narrative itself is written (atmosphere, tension, context clues). If you must include raw exposition, frame it (such as in a viginette, flashback, etc.) or, if used on a limited basis, use it to set the stage (as many OPs do with an introductory blurb).
Swith - Today at 6:11 PM
Q2 It shouldn't. Show, don't tell. Exposition is fine if you're doing an intro, but it's better to paint the scene through a character's eyes, or by placing the reader in the setting via their senses.
"It was a dark and stormy night" tells us. Having a character peer through a crack in the drapes to observe the dark, and having rain pound on the roof, and perhaps the character flinching from a sudden clap of thunder... this is "showing" us the setting.
Ghant - Today at 6:11 PM
Q2: What I generally do when it comes to exposition is spread it out throughout a post, if it's a large post, or throughout the thread. For instance, if I'm introducing an important character, I might start off with some basic background exposition about the character, and then reveal more about them as the thread progresses. It builds a sense of mystery and interest in the character, and makes the reader more invested in their story. I also am a big fan of writing poetry in my posts, and will include those in the beginning to add some detail the theme of the post or thread, in the middle to keep consistent with the flow, or towards the end to drive the theme home. In any event, I try to portray the exposition from the character's perspective through the use of POV.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:11 PM
TFW Mentors are hivemind.
Swith - Today at 6:11 PM
We are.
Agy - Today at 6:11 PM
Do keep in mind that while integrating details into the action/characters is good, you shouldn't force inappropriate behavior in the scene in order to avoid exposition.
Gren - Today at 6:12 PM
Swith confirimed for Borg Queen.
Vocenae - Today at 6:12 PM
Q2: I agree with the above, though if you're starting a thread and you have to cover a lot of setup of stuff that happened previously in a storyline with anotherp layer, text blocks arep robably going to be unavoidable. To which you're just going to have to dress it up as interesting as you can to hold reader interest.
Zark - Today at 6:12 PM
(For we are many!)
Swith - Today at 6:12 PM
(
Gren)
Agy - Today at 6:12 PM
It's better to have a little exposition than to have your characters flicking every switch or looking through every window just to get all the details in without exposition :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 6:12 PM
That comes down to pacing, rly. Pacing is a big part. Pacing/flow.
Giovenith - Today at 6:12 PM
Q2: One of the big things writers will always be told is the old mantra, "Show, don't tell." What this is meant to teach is that characters should not simply stand around and deliver all necessary information verbally because this is unnatural, rather, they should speak such information when it is story appropriate and the author should do their best to find ways to communicate information nonverbally as much as possible. An example would be instead of having Amy said "I'm hungry," or writing "Amy was hungry," say, "Amy's stomach growled."
Kyrusia - Today at 6:13 PM
Poor Amy.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:13 PM
Additionally, it's okay to leave some stuff to the reader's imagination. The job of the storyteller is to set the stage, and there are some details that, to use the theatre analogy, are not going to be visible from where the audience is, so why waste the time putting it there?
Swith - Today at 6:14 PM
Also, don't try to describe everything in minute detail. We don't need to know the wall's colors unless you want to impact us (blood red walls to indicate foreboding, for example).
Hive mind indeed.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:14 PM
(again, ASoIaF/WoT and over-describing EVERYTHING)
Zark - Today at 6:14 PM
Now for Question 3, by MVC: "At what point does writing change from an increasingly descriptive narrative to simply a block of exposition? When is one allowed to move along this line or cross it?"
Agy - Today at 6:14 PM
tries to escape the hive mind "I'M AN INDIVIDUAL. I'M AN INDIVIDUAL"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:16 PM
When you're first setting up, it's understandable you're going to have more exposition- you have to set the scene for your players and readers, and at that starting point in time, there's a lot of information that is relevant and needs to be conveyed. Further along in the story, you probably don't need to drop as much information, just what's immediately relevant. The party arrives in a new town; what's the first impression of the change in setting? Dingy buildings? Sparkling skyscrapers?
Kyrusia - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: When the characters stop acting/experiencing and begin simply, in their own, characterized voice, telling. This can work in some circumstances - say, giving a mission briefing or describing a situation other characters haven't experienced. Even so, it should be kept to a minimum and, preferably, broken-up from being a raw block with character interaction. You can use these moments to fill the narrative with context clues about each character's mindset, personality, fears, desires, conflicts with others, etc.
Agy - Today at 6:17 PM
Question 3: That's subjective and mostly depends on what hold's a readers interest.
Descriptive narratives ultimately differ from expositional blocks in that the narrative involves player/character interaction and the plot moving along. If you have multiple sentences dedicated to describing things without characters actually doing or experiencing anything, then your narrative may be turning into exposition without you even noticing.
What people consider acceptable levels of description in a narrative before it becomes exposition differs from person-to-person. Some people like to read novels and don't really mind detail provided they can work off of stuff happening to their character, while other people will grow tired of reading if there's more than a paragraph or two dedicated to non-character things.
What's most important is that you balance the descriptiveness of your narrative with your narrative actually propelling characters and plot points forward. As long as players feel satisfied by that, I think, you've appropriately avoided exposition.
Gren - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: What Reppy said, yet again. Your first post in an RP is probably your most exposition-heavy, since that's how you introduce your character. Everything after that is action, reaction, and processing.
Ghant - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: I think the difference is that a descriptive narrative describes in detail the current setting, the character's feelings, thoughts and emotions, things going on around them, etc. Whereas a block of exposition includes things not immediately associated with the present setting, such as dreams, reflections, internal monologues, things that the character is reading or thinking about in detail, such as stories, poems or letters, things of that sort. Simply put, excessive exposition consists of those things not immediately pertinent to the story, but serve as 'extra" material within.
Gren - Today at 6:19 PM
The extra stuff is probably best expressed in oneshots.
Giovenith - Today at 6:19 PM
Q3: That's a pretty hard question because a lot of it has to do with personal taste, and maybe even time period and culture. Tolkien, author of the Lord of the Rings books, despite being incredibly popular is often lambasted by non-fans for wasting time describing unimportant details, such as buttering toast or what a stick looks like. One of the big reasons that children in school find classical literature so boring is because they feel like older works tend to meander, flinging the reader with pointless details and detours instead of getting to the actual story. Other works have been criticized for being too short or blunt, failing to actually create an image in the reader's head and making it feel like events are being briefly explained instead of told like a story. "The Hunger Games" trilogy by Suzanne Collins was criticized by some for this, saying that while the book's style worked for fast-paced action scenes it served more mundane descripts poorly.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:19 PM
It's all about dat bass balance.
Agy - Today at 6:19 PM
wub wub wub
Ghant - Today at 6:20 PM
I'm refering to "indirect exposition" specifically, as opposed to the obvious "direct exposition" that includes the things others have brought up.
Gren - Today at 6:20 PM
Touching on what Gio said, as a summary, its a conflict between Tolkien and Hemmingway.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:20 PM
It also can vary depending on how on-rails your story is. If you have an open world and the plot is being heavily driven by what your players do, you might want to imply and leave gaps in the exposition to encourage them to investigate it and seek more information.
Swith - Today at 6:20 PM
When writing for roleplay, remember that your goal isn't to write a novel (all the time). Give enough for your players to work with. They need to answer the "5 Questions" based off your post: who, what, when, where, why? Your role, as a GM, is to provide the setting, the time, the reason for being there. Ambiance is essential to create depth. But don't get so wrapped up in narrative that you box your players in and leave them asking "Now what? How do I insert my character? TMI! What applies to me?"
Agy - Today at 6:20 PM
Essentially, what Gio and Gren are saying. You want enough detail to stimulate your reader, but not so much that you smother them. You'll determine the right mix once you find a solid group to play with and you find your audience and what they prefer.
Swith - Today at 6:21 PM
Smothering is a big thing. Try to avoid doing that.
Gren - Today at 6:21 PM
Personally, I err a bit more on the side of Hemingway in that divide, but I'm still pretty close to the center, I feel.
Zark - Today at 6:21 PM
A more specific one, Question 4, by Rhodevus, is as follows: "How would one best go about the classic "villain speech" without it coming off as pure boring exposition?"
Gren - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4: Honestly, I've never been a big fan of the villain speech trope. I think its very hard to do it in a way that's not pure exposition.
Swith - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4 "Monologging" is pointless.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4: Cut the monologue out of its traditional spot (the climax of the narrative, when the Hero confronts the Enemy) and transpose it to a different setting, time, and under a different context. Rather than explaining every detail, use it as a tool for forshadowing, in other words.
Agy - Today at 6:23 PM
Question 4: Don't.
Villain speeches are a staple of intellectual masturbation. In-reality a villain wouldn't be allowed to monologue for more than a few minutes without someone intervening unless the heroes are so inept they've become a captive audience. In which case, if the villain's monologuing they're pretentious as hell and if that's not a character trait of their's then they shouldn't be doing it.
Ghant - Today at 6:23 PM
Q4: I don't like to present characters in my work as obvious villians. What I do is present characters that can be viewed as the protagonists or antagonists depending on the reader's point of view. In light of that, I think the best way to present a "villian speech" is to present a character that is speaking in such a way that it is conveying their purpose and their objective, and to let the reader decide if what they said makes them a villian or not.
Swith - Today at 6:23 PM
Ask yourself, "Why would a villain disclose this information?" He shouldn't give up details that will bite him in the ass later. Characters should be the ones ferreting the info out. Handing it to them is dull.
Gren - Today at 6:23 PM
I could see a scenario where it would be useful for the protagonist to induce a villain speech in order to stall for time.
Agy - Today at 6:24 PM
In that case, though, you don't need to write out the entire speech. You just have to say the villain is doing it and maybe write out a few choice tidbits.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:24 PM
Putting some action into it helps, too. Interrupt the villain, make them have to react and work to get their tirade out. But also keep in mind that villains need motivations for why they might want to reveal certain information, too.
Ghant - Today at 6:24 PM
James Bond tied to a chair, case in point.
Swith - Today at 6:24 PM
Gren, yes, but that, too, should be carefully played out. Otherwise, character will start to question why the villain is wasting their time. "Oh, wait, he's stalling us!"
Agy - Today at 6:24 PM
Actually writing out a speech for your villain is just boring for your readers, no matter how compelling it is.
Vocenae - Today at 6:24 PM
Q4: Have them do, more than tell. IF you're written things right then the players should be able to have their characters reach the conclusions of what the villain is doing on their own. Sprinkles of exposition and clues that move the plot forward as a whole, and then it can all come to a more natural resolution.
Gren - Today at 6:24 PM
But that's about the only honest to God time its a good plot device.
Vocenae - Today at 6:25 PM
Unless, of course, you're all acknowledging cheese and camp as part of the RP.
Swith - Today at 6:25 PM
^^
Gren - Today at 6:25 PM
Swith, I think some lines got crossed.
Ghant - Today at 6:26 PM
You shouldn't make things too obvious in the narrative. A little having to figure things out keeps readers engaged :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 6:26 PM
Even then, there's kinds of cheese and camp that are fun, and there's kinds of cheese and camp that are frustrating. I think generally villain speeches, if they go on for more than a few lines, become boring and frustrating for readers and players alike.
Giovenith - Today at 6:26 PM
Q4: I don't know if you want to give a speech, but there's nothing wrong with having a villain explain their philosophies and points of view. The phrase, "X are people too," gets thrown around a lot at panels, but it is true for most staples of fiction. Villains are people too. The best villains have a clear reason for doing what they do, not simply to mock a hero, and they're probably in a rush to do it. Don't think about how a VILLAIN would dispense his evil plan, think about how a busy PERSON would dispense his personal viewpoints. It's probably going to be during a calm moment, with someone he either feels close with, is angry with for having opposing views, or to whom he's trying to convince to see his side of things. It's going to be when he doesn't feel like he's in any danger (no ranting while having a sword fight).
Swith - Today at 6:26 PM
I also prefer to break things up. I had a villain stall characters to buy his hench time. It was done through a series of short posts. He started off taking about his grandfather's apples. It took players a while to cotton on that this interaction was actually a ruse. We had a good laugh over it.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:26 PM
I'm, personally, actually a fan of providing a viginette into the antagonist's world toward the beginning of a story. I treat them as "establishing shots" for the character. They provide an immediate insight into their mindset, provide a pace-setter for the story, provide an over-arching air of scheme, and set-up the reader for confrontation later on.
Gren - Today at 6:26 PM
If you're James Bond tied to a chair, and you need to stall for time in order to activate your secret watch gadget to free yourself, getting the villian to give a big speech is a great way to do so.
Swith - Today at 6:27 PM
Gren, right. The motivation to talk is there in that case.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:27 PM
Or, flip the trope on its head: have the antagonist bound.
Vocenae - Today at 6:27 PM
"STOP THAT MAN, HE'S SUPPOSED TO DIE"
Giovenith - Today at 6:27 PM
Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker was a great example of a villain who got his point across without it becoming trifling.
Vocenae - Today at 6:27 PM
and then Bond gets tackled by a clueless overweight guy.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:27 PM
For instance, if you have a villain of the Well-Intentioned Extremist variety, rather than SAY how they're bringing peace by being an omnicidal maniac, arrange a situation where it's shown. A confrontation with the heroes in a graveyard, and a brief line from the villain about it being the only peace in the world says so much more than a long speech about the wrongs of humanity and so on
Zark - Today at 6:28 PM
Question 5, panel provided: "What is a player/writer's "voice," and how do these develop? Are each unique? Is there something one can do to help develop their own?"
Kyrusia - Today at 6:28 PM
I'll sit this one out.
Gren - Today at 6:28 PM
Q5: I'll sit it out as well, I know I haven't gotten that developed yet.
Zark - Today at 6:28 PM
(provides goat chair)
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:29 PM
Practice, practice, practice. Everyone has a different particular voice, and different characters that are played by the same person can have distinct voices as well. One good way to do it is go right out of your comfort zone. Try writing a character outside of your norm.
Ghant - Today at 6:30 PM
Q5: I think a player/writer's voice might refer to their storytelling style, if I had to assume. They are generally unique to each writer, I believe, and they develop gradually over time through the writing process. Eventually you'll get your own the more you write. Mine for instance, tends to be thematic and poetic :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 6:30 PM
Question 5: A player or writer's voice is a more flowery way of saying their style. It's how they come across in their work - more concise or meandering, more aggressive or passive, friendly or merciless to the characters, and so forth.
I wouldn't necessarily say they're unique, but there certainly are many of them. Most people develop their writing voice via a mix of their favorite authors and from their own experiences in both speaking and writing.
I am a firm believer that you should write how you talk (or, at least, how you wish you could talk). Avoid being too grandiose or verbose in scope and try to keep sentences at a manageable length. Be engaging with your structure and the details your provide. Change things up now and again.
In short, be interesting. That's a detail in someone's style that will stick with readers, regardless of the nitty-gritty of the style itself.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:30 PM
If most of your characters are serious business, no-nonsense types, maybe challenge yourself to write a charming rogue or the class clown.
Swith - Today at 6:31 PM
Q5 The "Voice" develops over time. You can start by imitating writers whose work has impressed you. Put a spin on it, enhance it, make it your own unique flavor.
I should add: if you belong to a shallowly written RP, and you make no effort to keep up your quality, you might fall out of practice over time. It's a frustrating process. If you remain with the same group over time, you might all start to sound the same eventually. Again, frustrating.
Giovenith - Today at 6:31 PM
Q5: A writer's voice is basically the habits in language, diction, and themes they tend to use when writing. It develops much like the literal voice does: listening to others' voices and practicing speech, via an almost subconscious process. While a writer can control their voice to some extent, it takes a lot of self-awareness and people might still pick your writing out as having been done by you. If you want to go out of your way to create a voice, the best way I think is to consume media: read books by multiple authors and try to figure out how they feel different, listen to different public speakers and see what unique effects they have. Ask yourself why certain approaches have the effect that they do, and whether or not you want to copy that effect for yourself.
Swith - Today at 6:32 PM
Though, for a OP and their CoOPs, this is sometimes good. Players see one writing style instead of two or more jarring ones. It makes for a smooth story.
Agy - Today at 6:33 PM
That's an excellent point, Swith. A writer's voice is a practice, not a singular object. You have to actively cultivate it with practice, as Reppy said.
Zark - Today at 6:33 PM
Question 6, asked by Bismarck: "How do you deal with collaborative narrative where the story is controlled by multiple people and viewpoints for a single story arc?"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:34 PM
Q6: Communication is the key to air power!! It's important to communicate with your players, with your Co-OPs, to help prevent minor problems from simmering until they blow up and to keep the overall storyline chugging along.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:34 PM
Q6: If you mean as in "a roleplay," it's simply a process of give and take and having a well-rounded, working relationship with those involved. Even if you're speaking of the NS-classic of "multiple people authoring the same post," much remains true.
Vocenae - Today at 6:35 PM
Q6: YOu should always plan out the entire narrative before getting involved. That means sitting down and getting to know the player/s that you're going to be working with and hammer out all the major details and plot points you want the thread to hit. Little details along the way, or big details that need to change, can always be done through communication with the other players.
Swith - Today at 6:35 PM
All roleplay is collaborative. That is why an OP/GM needs to worry about the framework and rules. Let the players - your fellow writers - contribute as equals in the storytelling. They may go directions you don't initially approve of but, if it's a solid group, they'll stay on track with the main arc.
Agy - Today at 6:35 PM
Question 6: I feel like that's generally how most non-railroaded RPs go. Like Reppy said, communication. Also, actual collaboration involves compromise.
Story arcs should have strong themes that everyone agrees to. If not everyone involved agrees to certain ideas or plot points in a work, the work is going to come across as muddled due to some writers half-heartedly investing themselves in the premise.
Work together and you'll make something beautiful.
Giovenith - Today at 6:36 PM
Q6: Difficult, but basically you have to have established boundaries about what people can and can't do so nobody runs away with the story and puts everyone else in a bad position.
Ghant - Today at 6:36 PM
Q6: Communication is key, especially the more people that are involved in the story. As long as everyone is kept informed and ar eon the same page, it is doable.
Gren - Today at 6:36 PM
I feel like it generally works more organically when the RP is one where the characters themselves have a motivation to work together, than one where they have immediately opposing goals.
Swith - Today at 6:36 PM
Communication between players "behind the scenes" (in an OOC thread, in TG, in chat etc) is vital.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:36 PM
Hiiiiiiiveeeeemiiiiiiinnnndddddd...
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:36 PM
A common issue I've seen is one particularly strong-willed participant kinda sucks the air out of the room for everyone else. It's important to make sure that ALL your players get their time in the spotlight, otherwise you get a breeding ground for disillusioned players feeling neglected, or like they're basically NPCs to that one player's story
Swith - Today at 6:37 PM
^^^^ SO much THIS.
Zark - Today at 6:38 PM
Next question, Question 7 by Sailor: "Everyone else seems to have walls of text in their posts. Should I be worried about getting up to that standard?"
Kyrusia - Today at 6:38 PM
Q7: Worried? No. It's not about post length; it's about post quality and content. But by the same token, if you're in a roleplay where everyone is posting ~4 paragraphs worth of work, you shouldn't do them the disservice of giving just one line.
It's a give and take. You need to give them - and the story - enough to work with to make your own involvement positive, qualitative, and worthwhile.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:39 PM
Q7: Is that what's fun for you? At the end of the day, the entire point of a roleplay is to have fun telling a story. Some people have fun with rapidfire one-liner RPing. Some have fun with fortresses of descriptive text that read like short novels.
Zark - Today at 6:39 PM
^^^^^^
Vocenae - Today at 6:39 PM
Q7: Your posts do not have to be novels in and of themselve,s but there has to be a certain level of quality to what you've got going on. Persoanlly I feel that three paragraphs is about the shortest you can make something that still has some level of quality to it.
Agy - Today at 6:40 PM
Question 7: Certainly not. In many cases walls of text tend to be an indication that players are tending toward novelization and are actually more of a problem then they are a blessing.
Of course, having extremely short posts players can't work off of is a problem, but there is something to be said for, as mentioned earlier, Hemingway's writing. Nothing wrong with being concise, as long as the quality shines through.
And quality doesn't erupt out of paragraphs; you don't qualify something as good purely by word count. The words being set down have to matter, first.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:40 PM
Neither one is more "right" or "wrong" than the other, they're just different ways to achieve that same goal. Granted, when you're running a roleplay, you will probably need to put a little more work into it just to get it off the ground and give it some starting direction. Otherwise, go nuts!
Gren - Today at 6:40 PM
Q7: Personally, I don't worry about it. Because I know everyone prefers quality over suffocating quantity. And if I tried to pump out a wall of text like some people (most of the people in the RPs I'm in only do what's necessary, I find), it would be garbage.
Ghant - Today at 6:40 PM
Q7: I try to keep paragraphs limited in size, somewhere between 4 and 7 sentences generally, so that the flow isn't disrupted by large chunks of text. I believe that posts can be of any size provided they are engaging and effective in conveying what the writer wishes to convey to the reader. I tend to write long posts (sometimes upwards of ten pages in MS Word) and I'm very conscious throughout the process of how the finished product will appear to the reader on the forums.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:41 PM
Everybody and their brother knows I'm long-winded. :stuck_out_tongue:
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:41 PM
Q7: Alternatively, though I don't know how common it is these days, another idea is to RP a short scene (such as a conversation between two characters) via a live chat such as Discord or IRC, and afterwards one of the particpants compiles that dialogue and fills it in with description for posting to the thread, rather than a dozen short posts back-and-forth for that conversation
Swith - Today at 6:42 PM
Q7 No. Sometimes those text walls are walls of shit spread across a page as the writer masturbates to his own ego. If you read a post and your eyes begin to glass over - well, don't mimic it.
If you are accustomed to only writing three lines, you can increase your post's depth by adding action to it. The character speaks. Pause, and have them reflect, perhaps brushing aside their hair as they frame their thoughts. Then speak again. Keep things short rather than huge blocks of text, if possible.
Unless you are in a game where this is the norm. These are usually slower moving games that require much forethought before each post can be written.
Reppy, we still recommend that.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:42 PM
:m_aye:
Giovenith - Today at 6:42 PM
Q7: No man, you do you. Just make sure you'd getting the minimum. It can be fun to challenge yourself, but you don't have to do anything that stresses you too much.
Additional note: I feel like more short-posted writers don't seem to realize this, but we "wall of text" people don't go into a post with the goal of creating a wall of text for the sake of it. We create those kinds of posts because we genuinely think that all of the information we have conveyed in those posts was necessary or interesting. It's not us trying to show off or one-up each other with how physically long the post can be, our only goal is to say we think needs to be said and the wall of text is how it happens to turns out.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:42 PM
^
Gren - Today at 6:43 PM
As a short-poster, I respect that, Gio.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:43 PM
Probably to Reppy's chagrin, I am very much the "atmosphere" and "viscera"-style of writer. :stuck_out_tongue:
Swith - Today at 6:43 PM
Good point, Gio.
Also keep your GM in mind. Sometimes those longer posts contain vital details. Don't skim them if you know your GM puts lots of thought into each line.
Zark - Today at 6:44 PM
Now for Question 8, by Ched: "For you personally, what's the best kind of conflict you could put into a story or game? Be it dire, lighthearted, or something else?"
Friendly reminder to panelist that half of the time has now elapsed!
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:45 PM
Oh man, it totally depends on the setting and overarching theme of the story. I've had a blast with epic world-ending crisises, ridiculous fourth-wall breaking nonsense, psychological thrills, the works.
Swith - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8 It depends on the story itself. Conflict develops character, of course. Players will inadvertently create healthy IC conflict as the characters go about their business.
Ghant - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8: Personal conflict. A man overcoming his demons. A man haunted by his past finding peace. A man bearing a scarlet letter receiving absolution. A man who's lost his faith rediscovering it after a challenging journey. Those are the conflicts that I find the most rewarding to write about and present to my readers.
Agy - Today at 6:45 PM
Question 8: Ideological conflict.
Those who know me know what I'm talking about; those who don't, well, I'm super-political and there's nothing that gets my blood racing like a grudge match over what is to be done about problems in the world.
Plus, ideological conflict naturally lends itself to sprouting different kinds of conflict - interpersonal, economic, what have you. If two people disagree on how the world works - and especially if they have prior history together - you can bet something interesting will come out of it. Whether violent, tragic, hilarious, or dramatic, it'll be interesting.
Giovenith - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8: I enjoy what you might call, "Saturday morning cartoon" levels of danger. Serious enough that crazy, traumatizing things can happen, but where consequences like death aren't a big concern.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:46 PM
The entire point of writing a story is to create interesting, likable characters... and then do horrible things to them!
m_yes3
Vocenae - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: I prefer darker, more intense stories, myself. Something that is pretty character driven with 'big stuff' happening in the background, up to and including being in the middle of a warzone.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: I am generally drama-focused, so my inter/intra-character conflicts tend to be less light-hearted and focused more on serious matters. It's not due to a dislike of light-heartedness, it's just not something I personally find myself writing a lot of. I also tend (or, at least aim) to interweave the three general literary conflicts (MvM, MvS, MvN) as much as I can, treating each as their own, weighted column, adding to the narrative; while one may be the chief focus of the plot, that still does not mean the others aren't important (or there).
Gren - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: Self-redemption.
Ghant - Today at 6:47 PM
^^^ Can a man be redeemed after commiting grievous sins? Juicy stuff.
Swith - Today at 6:47 PM
HOWEVER... nobody likes a melodrama queen character. Please don't drag players on asinine stories involving your character "finding itself". One or two, sure. But if they are in angst just so you can have attention put on you, you're going about "conflict" wrong.
m_yes7
Kyrusia - Today at 6:47 PM
^
Gren - Today at 6:47 PM
Oh, definitely.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:48 PM
Treat angst like exceptionally potent salt.
m_aye1
Swith - Today at 6:48 PM
Yes.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:48 PM
Plus, serious and silly are not mutually exclusive categories, either. You can have a story that does both
Vocenae - Today at 6:48 PM
Dark humor.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:48 PM
You want "additive," not "SUDDENLY SALTED COD."
Zark - Today at 6:48 PM
Question 9, by Sailor again: "How does one effectively write body language, emotion, and other nuances of a character?"
Giovenith - Today at 6:48 PM
No one is interested in being your character's personal therapist. Period.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: Observe your own and the body language, emotional expressions, and nuanced actions of others. I am not kidding when I suggest "act it out" - either mentally or physically.
Vocenae - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: I find that reading dialogue out loud or walking through a scene and acting it out as how you would react can give you a good indicator of how a character should physically act.
Ghant - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: What helps me with this particular aspect of writing is think about those things work in RL. How people might physically react to certain things, from their tone to their bodies and the emotional impact. Then, translating those observations into writing.
Agy - Today at 6:50 PM
Question 9: Be aware of yourself and of others in real life.
Look at how other people react to things, watch films with nuanced acting if you don't have the time or inclination to be a people-watcher.
Look at the small details that change when they're surprised, angry, note how their stance shifts when they feel attacked or welcome. These are the kinds of details you can inject into your post to convey a character without straight-out telling us.
Compare: "Keith was angry; how dare they accuse him of theft?!" with "Keith gripped his knuckles tightly against the armrest. His eyes narrowed and his voice trembled, 'What do you mean by that?'"
Giovenith - Today at 6:50 PM
Q9: Observation is the best way to learn, though you need to be careful about what it is you observe. A lot of writers try to incorporate "anime physics" into their writing, having grown characters do things like skip, jump up and down and squeal, or punch someone directly in the face apparently unaware of just how much that actually hurts/causes damage in real life.
Swith - Today at 6:50 PM
Q9 Get thee to a mirror! If you aren't used to writing these out, observe yourself actually doing the motions. Then look for creative ways to describe it. "Mary lifted her hand." vs "Mary's fingertips reached towards the sky..."
Emotion is a technique involving analysis. Why does the character feel that way? What sparked the emotion? What is running through the character's mind as the scene rolls on.
Characters don't act. Characters should always react.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:51 PM
Wait. Punching people in the kidneys hurts?
Giovenith - Today at 6:51 PM
What do you mean my tsundere would have been charged with assault a long time ago?!
Kyrusia - Today at 6:51 PM
#TheMoreYouKnow
Agy - Today at 6:51 PM
"But she likes you!" "Better hope she doesn't love me or I'm gonna end up in a body bag"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:51 PM
Q9: I like to break up a dialogue with a short narrative break to convey the body language or tone when I'm writing. For instance: ' “Easy enough.” Stellry grinned in a vaguely maniacal fashion. “Come at me with everything you’ve got, I’ll just stick to defense for now.”'
Kyrusia - Today at 6:52 PM
"To the choppah!" Ralph said, promptly evacuating his bowels and fleeing in the opposing direction, ne'er a turn to his now dumbfounded - and disgusted - compatriots.
Swith - Today at 6:52 PM
LMAO
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:52 PM
Helps keep dialogue-heavy scenes from just being back-and-forth quotation marks every line, while conveying additional cues about the tone, or the body language.
Zark - Today at 6:53 PM
Moving on, Question 10, by Bismarck: "I have issues writing female characters. What steps should I take to incorporate them more into my writing? My usual method has me thinking up a character, their back story, events, etc., as male and then gender flipping them. What else can I do?"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:53 PM
Oooh, that's a good one.
Gren - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Do that, but also account for any societal expectations faced by women in that setting.
Agy - Today at 6:54 PM
Question 10: Consider the cultural background of where they grew up and where they are now.
Gender is primarily a social rather than innate biological or psychological phenomena. Consider what kind of expectations women would have over men, what kind of duties, and how people would react to certain behaviors (ex. is an aggressive woman treated similarly to an aggressive man? what about a submissive or passive woman?).
Kyrusia - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Don't rely on stereotypes or play toward grotesque wish-fulfillment. They're simply a person of a gender different then your own, not aliens.
...Unless they are alien women.
Vocenae - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Women are people too. They are no different than male characters, save for the usual physical differences.
Ghant - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10: I know alot of players that have struggled with this. I had the benefit of growing up with two older sisters and having opportunities to observe and interact with them and their friends. I recognize that this isn't the case with many writers. My suggestion would be to observe women in real life. Pay attention to the way they behave, the way they talk, the things that they talk about, etc. Get in touch with female relatives and talk to them if you can. I think that will help a great deal.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10: A good starting point is to read other stuff folks have written about female characters as well. If you've got some female friends to bounce ideas around with, talk with them, pick their brain for commentary and suggestions. When writing something that's outside your personal realm of experience, it's always helpful to get some feedback straight from the source.
Swith - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10 Please don't do the gender flip thing. Society tends to shove us into gender rolls. Those roles have great bearing on how we develop as people, and how we approach things. Our early development grants us traits. "Women are thinkers, men are actors" has its basis in that upbringing.
Agy - Today at 6:56 PM
roles*
though society also enjoys gendering food, i guess gender rolls would taste like strawberry cherry or hard rock sawdust?
Giovenith - Today at 6:56 PM
Q10: When it comes to the specifics of writing a gender, things can get tricky. On one hand, there are things that men and women tend to do or not do, but on the other hand, you don't want to turn your characters in stereotypes. Ultimately, you have to remember that women are not some weird other species, they are people, and people are a result of an amalgamation of different factors. "Is a woman" is NOT a personality trait, but it may effect the practical ways she has to go through life.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:57 PM
I know my gender roll would taste like whiskey, tobacco smoke, and raw, unbridled hatred.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:58 PM
It's also really important to keep the setting of the story in mind when dealing with gender roles. Some settings will have more pronounced differences, others less
Swith - Today at 6:58 PM
In other words, start off with a female character in mind. Did she fight against her family's wishes in order to be an independent female? Did she strive to prove herself? Was she sheltered and raised a "proper lady" that never had to get her hands dirty before enlisting in the military and learning how to slaughter?
Giovenith - Today at 6:58 PM
A quote:
“A man once asked me ... how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a large, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. "Well," said the man, "I shouldn't have expected a woman (meaning me) to have been able to make it so convincing." I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.”
― Dorothy L. Sayers
m_yes7
Swith - Today at 6:58 PM
Good quote, Gio!
Gren - Today at 6:58 PM
^the basic point I was trying to get at.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:59 PM
Unless they're alien women. trollface.jpg
Zark - Today at 7:00 PM
Now for Question 11, by Ched yet again: "If you were to find a noob OP or player who's making 1, maybe 2 line posts, how would you best tell them to get to writing something more fleshed out and describing something in more detail?"
Swith - Today at 7:00 PM
Also, please don't pattern your female characters off what's found in anime. While anime characters work perfelct in an anime-based roleplay, they don't translate well as "real" in a non-anime roleplay.
Zark - Today at 7:00 PM
Also a friendly reminder that half an hour remains!
Gren - Today at 7:01 PM
Bullshit, Swith, everyone knows every woman is a yandere.
:stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11: Just talk with them. Find something they like. Give them room to indulge and encourage that indulgence. Try and transpose that indulgence to different topics by relating both the topic(s) and the process(es).
Swith - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11 I wouldn't "tell them". I would approach them and offer to help them grow as a writer. If they don't want help, that's the end of that. However, if it's my own RP (where I'm the OP), I have a line minimum rule, I'll boot them if the player won't make any attempt to meet that expectation.(editado)
Ghant - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11: This came up in a previous panel. I'd explain that they should think about the following things: who, what, when, where and why? Think about those things, write about those things, expand upon those things. That will make a one or two line post grow like a chia pet.
Swith - Today at 7:01 PM
Gren.
Agy - Today at 7:01 PM
Question 11: Ask them about details you'd need to respond to their post.
For example, if all a player does is have their character walk in and spout a one-liner, ask them what they're wearing? Other characters would size them up based on clothing and appearance, so that will be required in their post for others to respond to rather than ignore them. What do they smell like? How's their accent? Are they carrying weapons? What kind of faces did they make upon walking in?
All these details will naturally expand the player's post and gently remind them what kind of blind spots they have that players need filled in so they can craft appropriate responses.
Gren - Today at 7:02 PM
Q11: Politely tell them its difficult to craft a response to their post without some more details. Ask them to elaborate on things.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:03 PM
Q11: Ask for further information, encourage them to expand on the given material. "I'm having a hard time getting a read on this post, is your character mad about <thing>? I'm just not really sure how to set up a response from such a brief post."
Giovenith - Today at 7:03 PM
Q11: This has been mentioned before, but make a line-limit from the start. If you just give people free reign for the post length, there will be lazy people who take advantage of it. You don't have to demand a full paragraph from people, but generally demanding about three or four lines will force people to stretch their brains for more information. You can also politely ask them to put in a little more detail and help them if they're having trouble.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:03 PM
All else fails, if it's your RP, as Swith said: "I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave."
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:04 PM
Coming out with a blunt, "Write more than just a one-liner!", while ernest, is liable to put the person straight ont the defensive, and then less likely to listen to your advice. :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 7:04 PM
Friendly interruption, we have an extra panelist for the last half an hour, an N&I Mentor and the person who runs iiwiki: Santh!
Swith - Today at 7:04 PM
Nods A last resort. If we can't pull info out, and they refuse to budge, there's no way to work around it.
Santh - Today at 7:05 PM
Hello, sorry for the lateness
Ghant - Today at 7:05 PM
If they won't budge, you have to do what Kyrusia said, but after saying that, you should put a hand on your holster too :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 7:05 PM
welcome santh!
Giovenith - Today at 7:05 PM
Some people just need help. Some people are determined to be lazy. Help the former, kick the later.
Vocenae - Today at 7:05 PM
Q11: Approach them through telegram or if you're using a chat client, via PM. Talk to them and see why they posted such a short post, and why you'd prefer to see longer posts. If they express they're having trouble, then suggest adding details like what is the character wearing, the texture of, say, a table they might be sitting at. If it cold in the place they are? So on and so forth. Don't be afraid to ask them if they would like some help and examples of how /you/ might approach the post.
Swith - Today at 7:05 PM
You really do save yourself some heartache by giving players initial criteria. "No one liners, no asterisk play, no colored fonts to denote the speaker." etc
Vocenae - Today at 7:05 PM
^
Giovenith - Today at 7:05 PM
^^^
Santh - Today at 7:05 PM
Colored fonts are the bane of my eyes
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:05 PM
^^^^
Giovenith - Today at 7:06 PM
Especially when they pick a terrible, hard-to-read color.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:06 PM
And if you do use formatting as an indicative - such as 'This' for internal thought processes - then keep it fucking consistent across posts.
Ghant - Today at 7:06 PM
Thank you for telling me your weakness, Santh :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 7:06 PM
Moving onto Question 12 by Rhodevus: "How would you write multiple character views of the same scene?"
Swith - Today at 7:06 PM
Colored fonts and asterisks are the calling card of someone with the imagination necessary to game, but not the experience to do it properly. Those are the people I enjoy helping the most.
Agy - Today at 7:06 PM
Oh yeah set some basic guidelines for legibility. Colored fonts, weird sizes, one-liners are just no-nos. I thought the question focused more on expanding a player who isn't super problematic, just kind of terse, though
Ghant - Today at 7:07 PM
Q12: I use break lines between POVs to keep them seperate. I do this using BBC code to try to make it as apparent as possible that there's a transition to another POV taking place.
Agy - Today at 7:07 PM
Question 12: Weave them together.
Characters don't all react at the same time, and their physical reactions can often be described one-after-the-other in place of having a POV paragraph for each. Meld them together naturally to make the scene fun but also informative about how all the characters are reacting.
Swith - Today at 7:07 PM
Zark, can they clarify that a bit? View as in mental point of view, or views as in the scenery/situation around them?(editado)
Kyrusia - Today at 7:08 PM
Q12: Same way I write one, simply with an added perspective as broken. It's relatively rare - and, personally, jarring - to include multiple character-level perspectives without separating them in some manner. If it's simply a matter of exposing how the other characters are reacting without their given perspective, then remember to maintain the perspective you have confined yourself to (limited, omniscient, etc.).
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:09 PM
Q12: You can skew what the characters observe and do, based on their own inherent biases and experiences as well, which can keep the scene interesting even if it's being rehashed. Definitely do something to delinate when you're switching perspectives though, otherwise it will get real confusing real quick
Santh - Today at 7:09 PM
Q12 Fluidly. Though, first I would ask if multiple characters actually need to have their perspective given in any particular post. Can you stick to one per post? There is a good chance that will work out better for you, and there's a reason that Third Person Limited is the go-to for most non-YA fiction. If you have a good reason for the omniscience, then, well... see Kyrusia(editado)
Not his response. Just stare at him intently
In any given post, I write from the perspective of a single character almost every time
Ghant - Today at 7:10 PM
Q12: To elaborate on what Santh said, I never use multiple POVs to describe the same scene or occurance, otherwise it becomes redundant. What I will do is have characters reflect on that scene or occurance after the fact, to provide some insight into their perspective.
Swith - Today at 7:10 PM
If it's for scenery/setting, I simply have the character react/interact to what's actually causing them to react. One character may be looking at his watch because he's bored. The other is focused on the instructor standing in front of the class.
If it's mental, it's alright if your characters disagree with each other. Nobody likes a "ME TOO!" all the time.
Zark - Today at 7:10 PM
Clarification provided by Rhodevus: "let's say for example your 4 police characters are all trying to stop a robbery. How would you write a scene/scenes that incorporates all the different views, while still making it feel like a single robbery scene"
Kyrusia - Today at 7:10 PM
I'm gawjuss.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:10 PM
Q12: A character who is paranoid for example, might see a scene and pay attention to the likely areas danger and threat could come from. A character who is more trusting might not even be cognizant of the potential threat and focus on some non-hazardous detail that the paranoid one missed
Swith - Today at 7:10 PM
^^^
Giovenith - Today at 7:12 PM
Q12: You need to have the ability to get into another person's head and put yourself in their shoes, first and foremost. Even if you're not writing in first person, we should still be able to understand how a particular character views the world when the focus is on them. A book I'm reading, while in third person, takes turns focusing on different characters per chapter and the language and diction noticeably changes based on who is the focus. One of the characters, for example, is an obvious psychopath, and so the descriptions in his chapters become choppier and more matter-of-fact in order to highlight his cold thinking as opposed to the normal characters. Whereas a normal character might come with the writing, "The blood was a grisly sight, ruining his shirt and staining the pavement," the psychopath might instead just have it as, "He bled. It got all over the place and he made a mental note to buy some bleach later." Simple and cut.
When needing to focus on multiple viewpoints, switch between these tones based on who is being focused on and try to find how to make the switch natural.
Agy - Today at 7:12 PM
Question 12 (revised): Have it come across in their responses. If you want to convey mental stuff then split it into different paragraphs for clarity, but actions can often speak for themselves. A more paranoid officer might raise their weapon immediately while a more naive one might call out and figure out what's going on.
Santh - Today at 7:12 PM
Q12 addition That's probably the perfect time to have a key perspective. They're likely all discussing, so you can get the thoughts of the others into the post just as well, while having the lens of one. Third Person Limited is powerful despite its name. It's definitely easier to fit into for the reader
Zark - Today at 7:13 PM
Question 13, provided by Insaeldor: "How should non-linear narrative be handled in RPing?"
Agy - Today at 7:13 PM
I gotta drop out but I'll try and answer questions if I get back on-time. See y'all!
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:13 PM
Q13: Sounds like a job for time dilation!
Swith - Today at 7:13 PM
Non-linear, as in groups are in the same setting but moving at different paces?
Zark - Today at 7:13 PM
Later, Agy takes chair away
Kyrusia - Today at 7:14 PM
Or "non-linear" as in the story does not follow the traditional, linear structure of beginning-middle-end, but is perspective and temporally skewed?
Ghant - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13: I'd recommend through flashbacks from a character's POV, maybe not the same character for each flashback, but generally revealing past occurances that way in order to keep the narrative expedient.
Santh - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13 Easiest way is a noticeable break and some nice formatting letting you know it's in the past and where it is.
Six months ago
San Gianpiero, Santheres
I'm not sure if that's the best way
But it works
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13: Kinda a given in RPing, because some people are more active, and some plot threads may move at a faster pace. It's really helpful to keep notes, or some sort of master timeline so that all your players can keep straight who's doing what in which location/time
Ghant - Today at 7:14 PM
As Santh indicated, I use italics for flashback scenes.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:15 PM
Formatting, context clues, or both.
Santh - Today at 7:15 PM
well, I wouldn't italicize a whole paragraph
Ghant - Today at 7:15 PM
Even if the whole paragraph is a flashback?
Vocenae - Today at 7:15 PM
Q13: Short answer, probably not entirely correct, but Fluid time is also a thing. At least in FT.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:15 PM
A giant block of italicized text is painful.
Santh - Today at 7:15 PM
Just separate into a different scene. Scene break it off. It is, after all, a new scene
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:16 PM
I sometimes use blocktext for extended flashbacks- it visually splits the flashback from the main flow, but isn't as eye-tiring as a block of italics
Santh - Today at 7:16 PM
Treat it like any new scene. I like using center-aligned plus signs or an asterisk or something(editado)
Ghant - Today at 7:16 PM
You all wait to tell me this now! I've written pages of italicized flashback scenes, grr. :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:16 PM
[/hr] is your friend.
(SEE WHAT I DID THERE?! SEGUEING!)
Giovenith - Today at 7:16 PM
Q13: It takes a lot of damn practice to be able to write non-linear stories, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone who isn't already very comfortable with traditional linear stories. Generally, the non-linear format is primarily utilized in order to create plot twists, a character performing an action either without clear reason or for seemingly mundane reason and then filling in their true, surprising reason later. This requires a good grasp on reader expectation and the aforementioned nature of escalation and climax.
Santh - Today at 7:17 PM
@ghant I didn't want to crimp your style
Kyrusia - Today at 7:17 PM
Also the "drop into action" technique; there is a technical term for this, Reppy may know, but I cannot recall it.
Zark - Today at 7:17 PM
Clarification by Insaeldor: "As in a story where you start at the end and meander through the story at various points to give a whole story. A classical example would Pulp Fiction but several other works have done. Another example would be a story which starts in the middle and works it's way towards a end while constructing a beginning."
Swith - Today at 7:17 PM
It comes down to your style. I'll do flashbacks a variety of ways, depending on my mood and approach. Usually blocktext or even a [ list]flashback text[ list] can be handy.
However, I'll also use trailers.
Mary's eyes seemed to look through John...
[horrid memory flashback]
... "What were you saying?" Mary mentally shook off the bitter feelings
Santh - Today at 7:18 PM
in media res?
Kyrusia - Today at 7:18 PM
Then be very, very careful in your deployment of context clues and linking the independent, narrative elements in a manner that constructs a clear narrative structure, even when the individual pieces of the puzzle are not in alignment.
Yes, Santh. TY. :stuck_out_tongue:
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:19 PM
Q13 addition: That's generally used as a tactic to add tension and hide information from the reader. It can be very effective, but difficult in an RP setting. You'll want to have a lot more preplanning ahead of time, because the plot is going to be somewhat more on-rails with that setup since the endpoint is already locked down.
Zark - Today at 7:20 PM
Question 14 (LAST QUESTION), provided by Lykos: "Given most of us mostly write in the sense of roleplay, how should GM/DM/OP's set up narratives and stories to allow for players to have freedom and the ability to chose their charcater's own direction? Or is it better to set up a solid story and guide people through it instead? How much control is good to preserve a narrative in a roleplay story, in other words."
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:21 PM
Q14: It really varies, depending on the OP and on the players. Some players want the story handed to them to experience; otherwise want the freedom to find the story through their own actions. The best way to find that balance is generally going to be by talking to your players in the OOC thread while thrashing out the setup for your RP
Swith - Today at 7:22 PM
Q15 On the rails vs off the rails. A railroad game offers little chance for characters to choose. An OP might offer several choices, but these are mapped in the OP's head already.
Off the rails - let them have fun, but have an overarching plot to keep them engaged, or they'll end up bored and messing up your setting.
Santh - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14 Have hooks everywhere for people to grab on to. Your narrative is best as an overaching plot and people can work around and within, and you should try to tie what they do to it, but people should be able to branch out a bit. If you want to tell a very specific story that doesn't really vary from the main narrative, then you should probably just write a story
Swith - Today at 7:22 PM
^ exactly.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14: For me, this depends on your goals (and theirs) for the story and the style of the story itself.
I generally always recommend pre-planning of the narrative's key points - things that must be met and occur - in order for the story itself to be told and flow in a cohesive and telling manner. The rest, one can improvise and leave open to individual players, allowing them to construct their sub-plots as desired; even so, I would recommend weaving these plots either into the theme or directly into the over-arching plot points that have previously been pre-planned.
Ghant - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14: I think it depends on the story in question. Certain ralroaded RPs require certain restrictions in order to make the story play out according to the OP's wishes. Generally though, writers want to feel like they can have some impact on the course of the story, and that their characters matter to it and have meaning generally. So I favor a mixed approach, one where the course of the thread and the expectations thereof are conveyed, but also allowing writers to have the freedom to write out their characters' actions in the thread to their satisfaction, provided it's not disruptive.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:23 PM
If you have players who are comfortable having the plot on rails for them to react to, cool, plot out your story and take 'em for a ride. If you have players who want to discover the story themselves, plan for as many unexepected turns as possible and set tactfully placed plot hooks to guide them along without herding them there.
Giovenith - Today at 7:23 PM
Q14: People didn't audition for a play, they created characters that they intended to act as individuals. If you make the story too precise, people aren't going to feel like they're actually playing anything and are just mundanely following steps you set for them. However, you do need some structure, otherwise people will run away with the story and defeat its whole purpose. "All roads lead to Rome" - give them a lot of roads to take, but ultimately, make sure they all go towards the necessary destination.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:24 PM
My DnD group's DM said that he plans out at least two possible solutions to challenges... and most of the time our party still comes up with a solution he didn't think of. :wink:
Santh - Today at 7:24 PM
And it should always be open to those solutions
Swith - Today at 7:25 PM
Yes. Please don't force your players to conform to your rigid plan. Don't limit their characters by making every action "that won't work. NO!"
Santh - Today at 7:25 PM
I mean, some solutions are dumb and should be avoided. But then you just weave that into the story. So, your characters thought that tricking the giant turtle monster into going over a cliff would work? Well, it's got high intelligence. It ain't gonna cliff dive
so, they try that, it doesn't work. They flee to rethink
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:26 PM
If you want to give your players an open sandbox, expect to spend some effort on your worldbuilding, and be ready to have to improvise on the fly. A well-developed setting can make it easier to improvise later.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:26 PM
^
Swith - Today at 7:26 PM
^ Yes, exactly.
Giovenith - Today at 7:26 PM
Ja!
Kyrusia - Today at 7:26 PM
Especially since well-developed settings tend to naturally have a rational flow as to their individual pieces, making on-the-fly construction of new pieces fairly easy.
Santh - Today at 7:26 PM
That's why I worldbuild the hell out of everything I do
many things will never come up
but they can!
Ghant - Today at 7:27 PM
The groundwork is at least laid.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:28 PM
And players can be endlessly creative when it comes to problemsolving
Swith - Today at 7:28 PM
That's what makes RP so much fun.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:28 PM
Though, sometimes you do have to put your foot down for the overall weight of the plot.
Santh - Today at 7:28 PM
yes, sometimes you do
Ghant - Today at 7:29 PM
Or in Kyrusia's case, your hoof :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:29 PM
Santh - Today at 7:29 PM
No, he'll crush the plot!
Kyrusia - Today at 7:29 PM
;-;
Zark - Today at 7:30 PM
Alright, people, we're running out of time and there were regrettably a few questions we couldn't get to, but I believe this panel has been quite interesting! So, with that said...
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:30 PM
DM's plan: The party is on a ship attacked by a kraken, the plan is that it sinks the ship, stranding them in this other location. Party bard: Uses ability that teleports the kraken away briefly so thta the ship can escape. DM's new plan: Kraken did enough damage to the ship that it sinks anyway!
Zark - Today at 7:30 PM
Thank you all for your participation! This wraps up tonight's 7PM panel. Our upcoming schedule is:
Tonight:
Thread Marketing and Formatting — 9PM Eastern
Midnight Madness: The Revolving Door (Oddball #2) — 12AM Eastern
Thursday, July 13th, 2017
Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative (Early Hour) — 12PM Eastern
NS Sports: Mechanics and Roleplaying (Guest) — 4PM Eastern
Worldbuilding and Related (Late Hour) — 8PM Eastern
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: “Writing, Exposition and the Narrative”
TIME: COMPLETED
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative” (Late Hour)
TIME: 7 PM EST, Wednesday, July 12th
Good evening, people!. I’m Zark, your panel moderator.
This evening’s topic, “Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative (Late Hour)”, is fairly straight-forward.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us which subforum you haunt, as well as the meaning of life.
BEGIN
::
Kyrusia - Today at 6:00 PM
I'm Kyru. NS Game Mod, N&I RP Mentor specializing in FT, and I oversee the Mentor Program.
Gren - Today at 6:00 PM
I'm Gren, P2TM resident, and the meaning of life is bullshit.
Vocenae - Today at 6:00 PM
I am Vocenae, I'm an FT player and I spend way too much time in II. Also the meaning of life is pie.
Swith - Today at 6:00 PM
Hi, I'm Swith. I am NOT modding this panel. YAY! You can usually find me in P2TM. P2TM is, of course, the meaning of life (when not 42).
Kyrusia - Today at 6:01 PM
Meaning of life? TO REVEL IN THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS!
Obv.
Ghant - Today at 6:01 PM
Hello everyone! I'm Ghant, veteran N&I Roleplayer specializing in PT and MT, with a great love for worldbuilding! The meaning of life is the Goat. :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 6:01 PM
(P2TM is love, P2TM is life)
And Question 1 is a heavy one! "What are the fundamentals of a narrative?", asked by Sailor.
Giovenith - Today at 6:03 PM
It's me, the Lady Gio of P2TM, let's get started.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:03 PM
Second-string panelist Reploid Productions, better caffinated and less distracted than this morning. :wink: Longtime RP, writer (fanfic and otherwise,) infamous NS mod, and all around neeeerd.
Ghant - Today at 6:04 PM
Q1: For me, the fundamentals of a narrative consist of telling a compelling story that is both fun to write and engaging to the reader, and provides some sort of enjoyment for everyone involved from a literary perspective. That involves detailed settings, a rich backstory, an immersive in game world and dynamic characters that the readers are invested in.
Gren - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: Something has to be happening, first of all. Even if its just an internal monologue.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: At its core, any narrative is about conflict, even the most slice-of-lifey variety. A problem is encountered, and the characters involved go about resolving that problem. That problem can be a huge external thing (war, doomsday meteor, etc,) or it can be a small, character-driven one (characters overcoming personal issues in order to meet a challenge.) Or anywhere in between the two extremes.
Giovenith - Today at 6:05 PM
Q1: In a basic reading/writing class, you will be taught that a traditional narrative involves a beginning, escalation, climax, and deescalation. Generally narratives are favored by readers if they contain some sort of message of thoughtful themes for the reader to play with.
Swith - Today at 6:06 PM
Q1 Well, if a narrative is a series of events told in story form, then the fundamentals you need for it are the plot and setting and character/s. ... and Gio beat me to the rest.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:07 PM
Q1: Structure/flow, characterization, atmosphere, consistency, and conflict. Especially the latter. There is almost always some form of conflict, as conflict drives plot - it provides impetus to all/everything involved. No matter what the nature of it is: Man vs. Man, Man vs. Self, Man vs. Nature. Likewise, if one is including an overarching theme, motiff, aesthetic, or "moral," imparting and providing competing perspectives relative to such are important, allowing the reader/RP partner to come at and view said theme/motiff/etc. from many different angles.
Agy - Today at 6:07 PM
Coming in late. Hi, I'm Agy, and I hang out in P2TM
Question 1: A narrative has a beginning, middle, and end, centered around a conflict with identifiable characters.
In short, if you can imagine it as some kind of film or tv piece, it's probably got the basic structure of a narrative.
Gren - Today at 6:07 PM
Really, I think Reppy hit the nail on the head. Its about conflict. That's what I was trying to get at, because anytime something happens, there's a conflict, somewhere.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:07 PM
Also, an excellent and highly recommended storytelling resource is "The Writers Journey" by Christopher Vogler. Much more accessible and understandable than the classic writings on the Hero's Journey
Vocenae - Today at 6:07 PM
Q1: These guys have it right. The purpose of a narrative is to tell a story. Be that story about massive fleets flying through space or about Ms. Martha's two boys that won't stop fighting, there has to be something carrying it forward. Introduction and exploration of themes, characters, motivations, so on and so forth.
Zark - Today at 6:08 PM
The next one, Question 2, is asked by Ched: "How should exposition be best introduced to players? Like in many chunky bunches here and there? A nice fine stream that adheres to where the group is in the story's plot? Or something else you have in mind that you often personally do?"
Gren - Today at 6:09 PM
Q2: Personally, I go with an internal monologue, mixed with actual dialogue and actions.
Agy - Today at 6:10 PM
Question 2: As with most things, it depends on your style.
Generally, peppering exposition in with action and plot-movement catches player's attention and avoids them getting bored and their eyes glazing over after the fifth or so paragraph about local fauna and flora. However, long chunks of exposition can also be useful if one is trying to set up a specific tone or image in the scene for players to react to.
It's really up to you. My personal preference is to open scenes with exposition and transition smoothly into more action and dialog, with more exposition peppering the back-and-forth between players as their characters ask questions and reveal different details about the people and features of the scene.
Gren - Today at 6:10 PM
Anything that needs to be expressed but can't be conveyed in dialogue or action, can be internally monologued.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:10 PM
Q2: I prefer to keep the exposition brief and relevant to whatever is going on in the story at that point in time. Huge blocks of exposition are tougher for readers and players to digest, and can bog down the storytelling a lot. One of my gripes about A Song of Ice and Fire or the Wheel of Time books, actually- waaaaaay too much time describing inconsequential things, such as detailing the clothing people are wearing or the food on the table.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:10 PM
Q2: Your best choice is to minimize raw exposition as much as possible: show, don't tell. That being said, given the unique circumstances of storytelling via play-by-post roleplaying and the fundamentally collaborative nature of this venture, this does not always work out.
Best option is always to have the character unwravel the world for you as much as possible - the characters and simply the way the narrative itself is written (atmosphere, tension, context clues). If you must include raw exposition, frame it (such as in a viginette, flashback, etc.) or, if used on a limited basis, use it to set the stage (as many OPs do with an introductory blurb).
Swith - Today at 6:11 PM
Q2 It shouldn't. Show, don't tell. Exposition is fine if you're doing an intro, but it's better to paint the scene through a character's eyes, or by placing the reader in the setting via their senses.
"It was a dark and stormy night" tells us. Having a character peer through a crack in the drapes to observe the dark, and having rain pound on the roof, and perhaps the character flinching from a sudden clap of thunder... this is "showing" us the setting.
Ghant - Today at 6:11 PM
Q2: What I generally do when it comes to exposition is spread it out throughout a post, if it's a large post, or throughout the thread. For instance, if I'm introducing an important character, I might start off with some basic background exposition about the character, and then reveal more about them as the thread progresses. It builds a sense of mystery and interest in the character, and makes the reader more invested in their story. I also am a big fan of writing poetry in my posts, and will include those in the beginning to add some detail the theme of the post or thread, in the middle to keep consistent with the flow, or towards the end to drive the theme home. In any event, I try to portray the exposition from the character's perspective through the use of POV.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:11 PM
TFW Mentors are hivemind.
Swith - Today at 6:11 PM
We are.
Agy - Today at 6:11 PM
Do keep in mind that while integrating details into the action/characters is good, you shouldn't force inappropriate behavior in the scene in order to avoid exposition.
Gren - Today at 6:12 PM
Swith confirimed for Borg Queen.
Vocenae - Today at 6:12 PM
Q2: I agree with the above, though if you're starting a thread and you have to cover a lot of setup of stuff that happened previously in a storyline with anotherp layer, text blocks arep robably going to be unavoidable. To which you're just going to have to dress it up as interesting as you can to hold reader interest.
Zark - Today at 6:12 PM
(For we are many!)
Swith - Today at 6:12 PM
(
Gren)Agy - Today at 6:12 PM
It's better to have a little exposition than to have your characters flicking every switch or looking through every window just to get all the details in without exposition :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 6:12 PM
That comes down to pacing, rly. Pacing is a big part. Pacing/flow.
Giovenith - Today at 6:12 PM
Q2: One of the big things writers will always be told is the old mantra, "Show, don't tell." What this is meant to teach is that characters should not simply stand around and deliver all necessary information verbally because this is unnatural, rather, they should speak such information when it is story appropriate and the author should do their best to find ways to communicate information nonverbally as much as possible. An example would be instead of having Amy said "I'm hungry," or writing "Amy was hungry," say, "Amy's stomach growled."
Kyrusia - Today at 6:13 PM
Poor Amy.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:13 PM
Additionally, it's okay to leave some stuff to the reader's imagination. The job of the storyteller is to set the stage, and there are some details that, to use the theatre analogy, are not going to be visible from where the audience is, so why waste the time putting it there?
Swith - Today at 6:14 PM
Also, don't try to describe everything in minute detail. We don't need to know the wall's colors unless you want to impact us (blood red walls to indicate foreboding, for example).
Hive mind indeed.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:14 PM
(again, ASoIaF/WoT and over-describing EVERYTHING)
Zark - Today at 6:14 PM
Now for Question 3, by MVC: "At what point does writing change from an increasingly descriptive narrative to simply a block of exposition? When is one allowed to move along this line or cross it?"
Agy - Today at 6:14 PM
tries to escape the hive mind "I'M AN INDIVIDUAL. I'M AN INDIVIDUAL"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:16 PM
When you're first setting up, it's understandable you're going to have more exposition- you have to set the scene for your players and readers, and at that starting point in time, there's a lot of information that is relevant and needs to be conveyed. Further along in the story, you probably don't need to drop as much information, just what's immediately relevant. The party arrives in a new town; what's the first impression of the change in setting? Dingy buildings? Sparkling skyscrapers?
Kyrusia - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: When the characters stop acting/experiencing and begin simply, in their own, characterized voice, telling. This can work in some circumstances - say, giving a mission briefing or describing a situation other characters haven't experienced. Even so, it should be kept to a minimum and, preferably, broken-up from being a raw block with character interaction. You can use these moments to fill the narrative with context clues about each character's mindset, personality, fears, desires, conflicts with others, etc.
Agy - Today at 6:17 PM
Question 3: That's subjective and mostly depends on what hold's a readers interest.
Descriptive narratives ultimately differ from expositional blocks in that the narrative involves player/character interaction and the plot moving along. If you have multiple sentences dedicated to describing things without characters actually doing or experiencing anything, then your narrative may be turning into exposition without you even noticing.
What people consider acceptable levels of description in a narrative before it becomes exposition differs from person-to-person. Some people like to read novels and don't really mind detail provided they can work off of stuff happening to their character, while other people will grow tired of reading if there's more than a paragraph or two dedicated to non-character things.
What's most important is that you balance the descriptiveness of your narrative with your narrative actually propelling characters and plot points forward. As long as players feel satisfied by that, I think, you've appropriately avoided exposition.
Gren - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: What Reppy said, yet again. Your first post in an RP is probably your most exposition-heavy, since that's how you introduce your character. Everything after that is action, reaction, and processing.
Ghant - Today at 6:17 PM
Q3: I think the difference is that a descriptive narrative describes in detail the current setting, the character's feelings, thoughts and emotions, things going on around them, etc. Whereas a block of exposition includes things not immediately associated with the present setting, such as dreams, reflections, internal monologues, things that the character is reading or thinking about in detail, such as stories, poems or letters, things of that sort. Simply put, excessive exposition consists of those things not immediately pertinent to the story, but serve as 'extra" material within.
Gren - Today at 6:19 PM
The extra stuff is probably best expressed in oneshots.
Giovenith - Today at 6:19 PM
Q3: That's a pretty hard question because a lot of it has to do with personal taste, and maybe even time period and culture. Tolkien, author of the Lord of the Rings books, despite being incredibly popular is often lambasted by non-fans for wasting time describing unimportant details, such as buttering toast or what a stick looks like. One of the big reasons that children in school find classical literature so boring is because they feel like older works tend to meander, flinging the reader with pointless details and detours instead of getting to the actual story. Other works have been criticized for being too short or blunt, failing to actually create an image in the reader's head and making it feel like events are being briefly explained instead of told like a story. "The Hunger Games" trilogy by Suzanne Collins was criticized by some for this, saying that while the book's style worked for fast-paced action scenes it served more mundane descripts poorly.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:19 PM
It's all about dat bass balance.
Agy - Today at 6:19 PM
wub wub wub
Ghant - Today at 6:20 PM
I'm refering to "indirect exposition" specifically, as opposed to the obvious "direct exposition" that includes the things others have brought up.
Gren - Today at 6:20 PM
Touching on what Gio said, as a summary, its a conflict between Tolkien and Hemmingway.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:20 PM
It also can vary depending on how on-rails your story is. If you have an open world and the plot is being heavily driven by what your players do, you might want to imply and leave gaps in the exposition to encourage them to investigate it and seek more information.
Swith - Today at 6:20 PM
When writing for roleplay, remember that your goal isn't to write a novel (all the time). Give enough for your players to work with. They need to answer the "5 Questions" based off your post: who, what, when, where, why? Your role, as a GM, is to provide the setting, the time, the reason for being there. Ambiance is essential to create depth. But don't get so wrapped up in narrative that you box your players in and leave them asking "Now what? How do I insert my character? TMI! What applies to me?"
Agy - Today at 6:20 PM
Essentially, what Gio and Gren are saying. You want enough detail to stimulate your reader, but not so much that you smother them. You'll determine the right mix once you find a solid group to play with and you find your audience and what they prefer.
Swith - Today at 6:21 PM
Smothering is a big thing. Try to avoid doing that.
Gren - Today at 6:21 PM
Personally, I err a bit more on the side of Hemingway in that divide, but I'm still pretty close to the center, I feel.
Zark - Today at 6:21 PM
A more specific one, Question 4, by Rhodevus, is as follows: "How would one best go about the classic "villain speech" without it coming off as pure boring exposition?"
Gren - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4: Honestly, I've never been a big fan of the villain speech trope. I think its very hard to do it in a way that's not pure exposition.
Swith - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4 "Monologging" is pointless.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:22 PM
Q4: Cut the monologue out of its traditional spot (the climax of the narrative, when the Hero confronts the Enemy) and transpose it to a different setting, time, and under a different context. Rather than explaining every detail, use it as a tool for forshadowing, in other words.
Agy - Today at 6:23 PM
Question 4: Don't.
Villain speeches are a staple of intellectual masturbation. In-reality a villain wouldn't be allowed to monologue for more than a few minutes without someone intervening unless the heroes are so inept they've become a captive audience. In which case, if the villain's monologuing they're pretentious as hell and if that's not a character trait of their's then they shouldn't be doing it.
Ghant - Today at 6:23 PM
Q4: I don't like to present characters in my work as obvious villians. What I do is present characters that can be viewed as the protagonists or antagonists depending on the reader's point of view. In light of that, I think the best way to present a "villian speech" is to present a character that is speaking in such a way that it is conveying their purpose and their objective, and to let the reader decide if what they said makes them a villian or not.
Swith - Today at 6:23 PM
Ask yourself, "Why would a villain disclose this information?" He shouldn't give up details that will bite him in the ass later. Characters should be the ones ferreting the info out. Handing it to them is dull.
Gren - Today at 6:23 PM
I could see a scenario where it would be useful for the protagonist to induce a villain speech in order to stall for time.
Agy - Today at 6:24 PM
In that case, though, you don't need to write out the entire speech. You just have to say the villain is doing it and maybe write out a few choice tidbits.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:24 PM
Putting some action into it helps, too. Interrupt the villain, make them have to react and work to get their tirade out. But also keep in mind that villains need motivations for why they might want to reveal certain information, too.
Ghant - Today at 6:24 PM
James Bond tied to a chair, case in point.
Swith - Today at 6:24 PM
Gren, yes, but that, too, should be carefully played out. Otherwise, character will start to question why the villain is wasting their time. "Oh, wait, he's stalling us!"
Agy - Today at 6:24 PM
Actually writing out a speech for your villain is just boring for your readers, no matter how compelling it is.
Vocenae - Today at 6:24 PM
Q4: Have them do, more than tell. IF you're written things right then the players should be able to have their characters reach the conclusions of what the villain is doing on their own. Sprinkles of exposition and clues that move the plot forward as a whole, and then it can all come to a more natural resolution.
Gren - Today at 6:24 PM
But that's about the only honest to God time its a good plot device.
Vocenae - Today at 6:25 PM
Unless, of course, you're all acknowledging cheese and camp as part of the RP.
Swith - Today at 6:25 PM
^^
Gren - Today at 6:25 PM
Swith, I think some lines got crossed.
Ghant - Today at 6:26 PM
You shouldn't make things too obvious in the narrative. A little having to figure things out keeps readers engaged :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 6:26 PM
Even then, there's kinds of cheese and camp that are fun, and there's kinds of cheese and camp that are frustrating. I think generally villain speeches, if they go on for more than a few lines, become boring and frustrating for readers and players alike.
Giovenith - Today at 6:26 PM
Q4: I don't know if you want to give a speech, but there's nothing wrong with having a villain explain their philosophies and points of view. The phrase, "X are people too," gets thrown around a lot at panels, but it is true for most staples of fiction. Villains are people too. The best villains have a clear reason for doing what they do, not simply to mock a hero, and they're probably in a rush to do it. Don't think about how a VILLAIN would dispense his evil plan, think about how a busy PERSON would dispense his personal viewpoints. It's probably going to be during a calm moment, with someone he either feels close with, is angry with for having opposing views, or to whom he's trying to convince to see his side of things. It's going to be when he doesn't feel like he's in any danger (no ranting while having a sword fight).
Swith - Today at 6:26 PM
I also prefer to break things up. I had a villain stall characters to buy his hench time. It was done through a series of short posts. He started off taking about his grandfather's apples. It took players a while to cotton on that this interaction was actually a ruse. We had a good laugh over it.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:26 PM
I'm, personally, actually a fan of providing a viginette into the antagonist's world toward the beginning of a story. I treat them as "establishing shots" for the character. They provide an immediate insight into their mindset, provide a pace-setter for the story, provide an over-arching air of scheme, and set-up the reader for confrontation later on.
Gren - Today at 6:26 PM
If you're James Bond tied to a chair, and you need to stall for time in order to activate your secret watch gadget to free yourself, getting the villian to give a big speech is a great way to do so.
Swith - Today at 6:27 PM
Gren, right. The motivation to talk is there in that case.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:27 PM
Or, flip the trope on its head: have the antagonist bound.
Vocenae - Today at 6:27 PM
"STOP THAT MAN, HE'S SUPPOSED TO DIE"
Giovenith - Today at 6:27 PM
Heath Ledger's portrayal of the Joker was a great example of a villain who got his point across without it becoming trifling.
Vocenae - Today at 6:27 PM
and then Bond gets tackled by a clueless overweight guy.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:27 PM
For instance, if you have a villain of the Well-Intentioned Extremist variety, rather than SAY how they're bringing peace by being an omnicidal maniac, arrange a situation where it's shown. A confrontation with the heroes in a graveyard, and a brief line from the villain about it being the only peace in the world says so much more than a long speech about the wrongs of humanity and so on
Zark - Today at 6:28 PM
Question 5, panel provided: "What is a player/writer's "voice," and how do these develop? Are each unique? Is there something one can do to help develop their own?"
Kyrusia - Today at 6:28 PM
I'll sit this one out.
Gren - Today at 6:28 PM
Q5: I'll sit it out as well, I know I haven't gotten that developed yet.
Zark - Today at 6:28 PM
(provides goat chair)
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:29 PM
Practice, practice, practice. Everyone has a different particular voice, and different characters that are played by the same person can have distinct voices as well. One good way to do it is go right out of your comfort zone. Try writing a character outside of your norm.
Ghant - Today at 6:30 PM
Q5: I think a player/writer's voice might refer to their storytelling style, if I had to assume. They are generally unique to each writer, I believe, and they develop gradually over time through the writing process. Eventually you'll get your own the more you write. Mine for instance, tends to be thematic and poetic :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 6:30 PM
Question 5: A player or writer's voice is a more flowery way of saying their style. It's how they come across in their work - more concise or meandering, more aggressive or passive, friendly or merciless to the characters, and so forth.
I wouldn't necessarily say they're unique, but there certainly are many of them. Most people develop their writing voice via a mix of their favorite authors and from their own experiences in both speaking and writing.
I am a firm believer that you should write how you talk (or, at least, how you wish you could talk). Avoid being too grandiose or verbose in scope and try to keep sentences at a manageable length. Be engaging with your structure and the details your provide. Change things up now and again.
In short, be interesting. That's a detail in someone's style that will stick with readers, regardless of the nitty-gritty of the style itself.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:30 PM
If most of your characters are serious business, no-nonsense types, maybe challenge yourself to write a charming rogue or the class clown.
Swith - Today at 6:31 PM
Q5 The "Voice" develops over time. You can start by imitating writers whose work has impressed you. Put a spin on it, enhance it, make it your own unique flavor.
I should add: if you belong to a shallowly written RP, and you make no effort to keep up your quality, you might fall out of practice over time. It's a frustrating process. If you remain with the same group over time, you might all start to sound the same eventually. Again, frustrating.
Giovenith - Today at 6:31 PM
Q5: A writer's voice is basically the habits in language, diction, and themes they tend to use when writing. It develops much like the literal voice does: listening to others' voices and practicing speech, via an almost subconscious process. While a writer can control their voice to some extent, it takes a lot of self-awareness and people might still pick your writing out as having been done by you. If you want to go out of your way to create a voice, the best way I think is to consume media: read books by multiple authors and try to figure out how they feel different, listen to different public speakers and see what unique effects they have. Ask yourself why certain approaches have the effect that they do, and whether or not you want to copy that effect for yourself.
Swith - Today at 6:32 PM
Though, for a OP and their CoOPs, this is sometimes good. Players see one writing style instead of two or more jarring ones. It makes for a smooth story.
Agy - Today at 6:33 PM
That's an excellent point, Swith. A writer's voice is a practice, not a singular object. You have to actively cultivate it with practice, as Reppy said.
Zark - Today at 6:33 PM
Question 6, asked by Bismarck: "How do you deal with collaborative narrative where the story is controlled by multiple people and viewpoints for a single story arc?"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:34 PM
Q6: Communication is the key to air power!! It's important to communicate with your players, with your Co-OPs, to help prevent minor problems from simmering until they blow up and to keep the overall storyline chugging along.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:34 PM
Q6: If you mean as in "a roleplay," it's simply a process of give and take and having a well-rounded, working relationship with those involved. Even if you're speaking of the NS-classic of "multiple people authoring the same post," much remains true.
Vocenae - Today at 6:35 PM
Q6: YOu should always plan out the entire narrative before getting involved. That means sitting down and getting to know the player/s that you're going to be working with and hammer out all the major details and plot points you want the thread to hit. Little details along the way, or big details that need to change, can always be done through communication with the other players.
Swith - Today at 6:35 PM
All roleplay is collaborative. That is why an OP/GM needs to worry about the framework and rules. Let the players - your fellow writers - contribute as equals in the storytelling. They may go directions you don't initially approve of but, if it's a solid group, they'll stay on track with the main arc.
Agy - Today at 6:35 PM
Question 6: I feel like that's generally how most non-railroaded RPs go. Like Reppy said, communication. Also, actual collaboration involves compromise.
Story arcs should have strong themes that everyone agrees to. If not everyone involved agrees to certain ideas or plot points in a work, the work is going to come across as muddled due to some writers half-heartedly investing themselves in the premise.
Work together and you'll make something beautiful.
Giovenith - Today at 6:36 PM
Q6: Difficult, but basically you have to have established boundaries about what people can and can't do so nobody runs away with the story and puts everyone else in a bad position.
Ghant - Today at 6:36 PM
Q6: Communication is key, especially the more people that are involved in the story. As long as everyone is kept informed and ar eon the same page, it is doable.
Gren - Today at 6:36 PM
I feel like it generally works more organically when the RP is one where the characters themselves have a motivation to work together, than one where they have immediately opposing goals.
Swith - Today at 6:36 PM
Communication between players "behind the scenes" (in an OOC thread, in TG, in chat etc) is vital.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:36 PM
Hiiiiiiiveeeeemiiiiiiinnnndddddd...
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:36 PM
A common issue I've seen is one particularly strong-willed participant kinda sucks the air out of the room for everyone else. It's important to make sure that ALL your players get their time in the spotlight, otherwise you get a breeding ground for disillusioned players feeling neglected, or like they're basically NPCs to that one player's story
Swith - Today at 6:37 PM
^^^^ SO much THIS.
Zark - Today at 6:38 PM
Next question, Question 7 by Sailor: "Everyone else seems to have walls of text in their posts. Should I be worried about getting up to that standard?"
Kyrusia - Today at 6:38 PM
Q7: Worried? No. It's not about post length; it's about post quality and content. But by the same token, if you're in a roleplay where everyone is posting ~4 paragraphs worth of work, you shouldn't do them the disservice of giving just one line.
It's a give and take. You need to give them - and the story - enough to work with to make your own involvement positive, qualitative, and worthwhile.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:39 PM
Q7: Is that what's fun for you? At the end of the day, the entire point of a roleplay is to have fun telling a story. Some people have fun with rapidfire one-liner RPing. Some have fun with fortresses of descriptive text that read like short novels.
Zark - Today at 6:39 PM
^^^^^^
Vocenae - Today at 6:39 PM
Q7: Your posts do not have to be novels in and of themselve,s but there has to be a certain level of quality to what you've got going on. Persoanlly I feel that three paragraphs is about the shortest you can make something that still has some level of quality to it.
Agy - Today at 6:40 PM
Question 7: Certainly not. In many cases walls of text tend to be an indication that players are tending toward novelization and are actually more of a problem then they are a blessing.
Of course, having extremely short posts players can't work off of is a problem, but there is something to be said for, as mentioned earlier, Hemingway's writing. Nothing wrong with being concise, as long as the quality shines through.
And quality doesn't erupt out of paragraphs; you don't qualify something as good purely by word count. The words being set down have to matter, first.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:40 PM
Neither one is more "right" or "wrong" than the other, they're just different ways to achieve that same goal. Granted, when you're running a roleplay, you will probably need to put a little more work into it just to get it off the ground and give it some starting direction. Otherwise, go nuts!
Gren - Today at 6:40 PM
Q7: Personally, I don't worry about it. Because I know everyone prefers quality over suffocating quantity. And if I tried to pump out a wall of text like some people (most of the people in the RPs I'm in only do what's necessary, I find), it would be garbage.
Ghant - Today at 6:40 PM
Q7: I try to keep paragraphs limited in size, somewhere between 4 and 7 sentences generally, so that the flow isn't disrupted by large chunks of text. I believe that posts can be of any size provided they are engaging and effective in conveying what the writer wishes to convey to the reader. I tend to write long posts (sometimes upwards of ten pages in MS Word) and I'm very conscious throughout the process of how the finished product will appear to the reader on the forums.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:41 PM
Everybody and their brother knows I'm long-winded. :stuck_out_tongue:
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:41 PM
Q7: Alternatively, though I don't know how common it is these days, another idea is to RP a short scene (such as a conversation between two characters) via a live chat such as Discord or IRC, and afterwards one of the particpants compiles that dialogue and fills it in with description for posting to the thread, rather than a dozen short posts back-and-forth for that conversation
Swith - Today at 6:42 PM
Q7 No. Sometimes those text walls are walls of shit spread across a page as the writer masturbates to his own ego. If you read a post and your eyes begin to glass over - well, don't mimic it.
If you are accustomed to only writing three lines, you can increase your post's depth by adding action to it. The character speaks. Pause, and have them reflect, perhaps brushing aside their hair as they frame their thoughts. Then speak again. Keep things short rather than huge blocks of text, if possible.
Unless you are in a game where this is the norm. These are usually slower moving games that require much forethought before each post can be written.
Reppy, we still recommend that.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:42 PM
:m_aye:
Giovenith - Today at 6:42 PM
Q7: No man, you do you. Just make sure you'd getting the minimum. It can be fun to challenge yourself, but you don't have to do anything that stresses you too much.
Additional note: I feel like more short-posted writers don't seem to realize this, but we "wall of text" people don't go into a post with the goal of creating a wall of text for the sake of it. We create those kinds of posts because we genuinely think that all of the information we have conveyed in those posts was necessary or interesting. It's not us trying to show off or one-up each other with how physically long the post can be, our only goal is to say we think needs to be said and the wall of text is how it happens to turns out.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:42 PM
^
Gren - Today at 6:43 PM
As a short-poster, I respect that, Gio.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:43 PM
Probably to Reppy's chagrin, I am very much the "atmosphere" and "viscera"-style of writer. :stuck_out_tongue:
Swith - Today at 6:43 PM
Good point, Gio.
Also keep your GM in mind. Sometimes those longer posts contain vital details. Don't skim them if you know your GM puts lots of thought into each line.
Zark - Today at 6:44 PM
Now for Question 8, by Ched: "For you personally, what's the best kind of conflict you could put into a story or game? Be it dire, lighthearted, or something else?"
Friendly reminder to panelist that half of the time has now elapsed!
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:45 PM
Oh man, it totally depends on the setting and overarching theme of the story. I've had a blast with epic world-ending crisises, ridiculous fourth-wall breaking nonsense, psychological thrills, the works.
Swith - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8 It depends on the story itself. Conflict develops character, of course. Players will inadvertently create healthy IC conflict as the characters go about their business.
Ghant - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8: Personal conflict. A man overcoming his demons. A man haunted by his past finding peace. A man bearing a scarlet letter receiving absolution. A man who's lost his faith rediscovering it after a challenging journey. Those are the conflicts that I find the most rewarding to write about and present to my readers.
Agy - Today at 6:45 PM
Question 8: Ideological conflict.
Those who know me know what I'm talking about; those who don't, well, I'm super-political and there's nothing that gets my blood racing like a grudge match over what is to be done about problems in the world.
Plus, ideological conflict naturally lends itself to sprouting different kinds of conflict - interpersonal, economic, what have you. If two people disagree on how the world works - and especially if they have prior history together - you can bet something interesting will come out of it. Whether violent, tragic, hilarious, or dramatic, it'll be interesting.
Giovenith - Today at 6:45 PM
Q8: I enjoy what you might call, "Saturday morning cartoon" levels of danger. Serious enough that crazy, traumatizing things can happen, but where consequences like death aren't a big concern.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:46 PM
The entire point of writing a story is to create interesting, likable characters... and then do horrible things to them!
m_yes3
Vocenae - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: I prefer darker, more intense stories, myself. Something that is pretty character driven with 'big stuff' happening in the background, up to and including being in the middle of a warzone.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: I am generally drama-focused, so my inter/intra-character conflicts tend to be less light-hearted and focused more on serious matters. It's not due to a dislike of light-heartedness, it's just not something I personally find myself writing a lot of. I also tend (or, at least aim) to interweave the three general literary conflicts (MvM, MvS, MvN) as much as I can, treating each as their own, weighted column, adding to the narrative; while one may be the chief focus of the plot, that still does not mean the others aren't important (or there).
Gren - Today at 6:46 PM
Q8: Self-redemption.
Ghant - Today at 6:47 PM
^^^ Can a man be redeemed after commiting grievous sins? Juicy stuff.
Swith - Today at 6:47 PM
HOWEVER... nobody likes a melodrama queen character. Please don't drag players on asinine stories involving your character "finding itself". One or two, sure. But if they are in angst just so you can have attention put on you, you're going about "conflict" wrong.
m_yes7
Kyrusia - Today at 6:47 PM
^
Gren - Today at 6:47 PM
Oh, definitely.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:48 PM
Treat angst like exceptionally potent salt.
m_aye1
Swith - Today at 6:48 PM
Yes.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:48 PM
Plus, serious and silly are not mutually exclusive categories, either. You can have a story that does both
Vocenae - Today at 6:48 PM
Dark humor.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:48 PM
You want "additive," not "SUDDENLY SALTED COD."
Zark - Today at 6:48 PM
Question 9, by Sailor again: "How does one effectively write body language, emotion, and other nuances of a character?"
Giovenith - Today at 6:48 PM
No one is interested in being your character's personal therapist. Period.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: Observe your own and the body language, emotional expressions, and nuanced actions of others. I am not kidding when I suggest "act it out" - either mentally or physically.
Vocenae - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: I find that reading dialogue out loud or walking through a scene and acting it out as how you would react can give you a good indicator of how a character should physically act.
Ghant - Today at 6:49 PM
Q9: What helps me with this particular aspect of writing is think about those things work in RL. How people might physically react to certain things, from their tone to their bodies and the emotional impact. Then, translating those observations into writing.
Agy - Today at 6:50 PM
Question 9: Be aware of yourself and of others in real life.
Look at how other people react to things, watch films with nuanced acting if you don't have the time or inclination to be a people-watcher.
Look at the small details that change when they're surprised, angry, note how their stance shifts when they feel attacked or welcome. These are the kinds of details you can inject into your post to convey a character without straight-out telling us.
Compare: "Keith was angry; how dare they accuse him of theft?!" with "Keith gripped his knuckles tightly against the armrest. His eyes narrowed and his voice trembled, 'What do you mean by that?'"
Giovenith - Today at 6:50 PM
Q9: Observation is the best way to learn, though you need to be careful about what it is you observe. A lot of writers try to incorporate "anime physics" into their writing, having grown characters do things like skip, jump up and down and squeal, or punch someone directly in the face apparently unaware of just how much that actually hurts/causes damage in real life.
Swith - Today at 6:50 PM
Q9 Get thee to a mirror! If you aren't used to writing these out, observe yourself actually doing the motions. Then look for creative ways to describe it. "Mary lifted her hand." vs "Mary's fingertips reached towards the sky..."
Emotion is a technique involving analysis. Why does the character feel that way? What sparked the emotion? What is running through the character's mind as the scene rolls on.
Characters don't act. Characters should always react.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:51 PM
Wait. Punching people in the kidneys hurts?
Giovenith - Today at 6:51 PM
What do you mean my tsundere would have been charged with assault a long time ago?!
Kyrusia - Today at 6:51 PM
#TheMoreYouKnow
Agy - Today at 6:51 PM
"But she likes you!" "Better hope she doesn't love me or I'm gonna end up in a body bag"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:51 PM
Q9: I like to break up a dialogue with a short narrative break to convey the body language or tone when I'm writing. For instance: ' “Easy enough.” Stellry grinned in a vaguely maniacal fashion. “Come at me with everything you’ve got, I’ll just stick to defense for now.”'
Kyrusia - Today at 6:52 PM
"To the choppah!" Ralph said, promptly evacuating his bowels and fleeing in the opposing direction, ne'er a turn to his now dumbfounded - and disgusted - compatriots.
Swith - Today at 6:52 PM
LMAO
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:52 PM
Helps keep dialogue-heavy scenes from just being back-and-forth quotation marks every line, while conveying additional cues about the tone, or the body language.
Zark - Today at 6:53 PM
Moving on, Question 10, by Bismarck: "I have issues writing female characters. What steps should I take to incorporate them more into my writing? My usual method has me thinking up a character, their back story, events, etc., as male and then gender flipping them. What else can I do?"
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:53 PM
Oooh, that's a good one.
Gren - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Do that, but also account for any societal expectations faced by women in that setting.
Agy - Today at 6:54 PM
Question 10: Consider the cultural background of where they grew up and where they are now.
Gender is primarily a social rather than innate biological or psychological phenomena. Consider what kind of expectations women would have over men, what kind of duties, and how people would react to certain behaviors (ex. is an aggressive woman treated similarly to an aggressive man? what about a submissive or passive woman?).
Kyrusia - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Don't rely on stereotypes or play toward grotesque wish-fulfillment. They're simply a person of a gender different then your own, not aliens.
...Unless they are alien women.
Vocenae - Today at 6:54 PM
Q10: Women are people too. They are no different than male characters, save for the usual physical differences.
Ghant - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10: I know alot of players that have struggled with this. I had the benefit of growing up with two older sisters and having opportunities to observe and interact with them and their friends. I recognize that this isn't the case with many writers. My suggestion would be to observe women in real life. Pay attention to the way they behave, the way they talk, the things that they talk about, etc. Get in touch with female relatives and talk to them if you can. I think that will help a great deal.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10: A good starting point is to read other stuff folks have written about female characters as well. If you've got some female friends to bounce ideas around with, talk with them, pick their brain for commentary and suggestions. When writing something that's outside your personal realm of experience, it's always helpful to get some feedback straight from the source.
Swith - Today at 6:55 PM
Q10 Please don't do the gender flip thing. Society tends to shove us into gender rolls. Those roles have great bearing on how we develop as people, and how we approach things. Our early development grants us traits. "Women are thinkers, men are actors" has its basis in that upbringing.
Agy - Today at 6:56 PM
roles*
though society also enjoys gendering food, i guess gender rolls would taste like strawberry cherry or hard rock sawdust?
Giovenith - Today at 6:56 PM
Q10: When it comes to the specifics of writing a gender, things can get tricky. On one hand, there are things that men and women tend to do or not do, but on the other hand, you don't want to turn your characters in stereotypes. Ultimately, you have to remember that women are not some weird other species, they are people, and people are a result of an amalgamation of different factors. "Is a woman" is NOT a personality trait, but it may effect the practical ways she has to go through life.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:57 PM
I know my gender roll would taste like whiskey, tobacco smoke, and raw, unbridled hatred.
Reploid Productions - Today at 6:58 PM
It's also really important to keep the setting of the story in mind when dealing with gender roles. Some settings will have more pronounced differences, others less
Swith - Today at 6:58 PM
In other words, start off with a female character in mind. Did she fight against her family's wishes in order to be an independent female? Did she strive to prove herself? Was she sheltered and raised a "proper lady" that never had to get her hands dirty before enlisting in the military and learning how to slaughter?
Giovenith - Today at 6:58 PM
A quote:
“A man once asked me ... how I managed in my books to write such natural conversation between men when they were by themselves. Was I, by any chance, a member of a large, mixed family with a lot of male friends? I replied that, on the contrary, I was an only child and had practically never seen or spoken to any men of my own age till I was about twenty-five. "Well," said the man, "I shouldn't have expected a woman (meaning me) to have been able to make it so convincing." I replied that I had coped with this difficult problem by making my men talk, as far as possible, like ordinary human beings. This aspect of the matter seemed to surprise the other speaker; he said no more, but took it away to chew it over. One of these days it may quite likely occur to him that women, as well as men, when left to themselves, talk very much like human beings also.”
― Dorothy L. Sayers
m_yes7
Swith - Today at 6:58 PM
Good quote, Gio!
Gren - Today at 6:58 PM
^the basic point I was trying to get at.
Kyrusia - Today at 6:59 PM
Unless they're alien women. trollface.jpg
Zark - Today at 7:00 PM
Now for Question 11, by Ched yet again: "If you were to find a noob OP or player who's making 1, maybe 2 line posts, how would you best tell them to get to writing something more fleshed out and describing something in more detail?"
Swith - Today at 7:00 PM
Also, please don't pattern your female characters off what's found in anime. While anime characters work perfelct in an anime-based roleplay, they don't translate well as "real" in a non-anime roleplay.
Zark - Today at 7:00 PM
Also a friendly reminder that half an hour remains!
Gren - Today at 7:01 PM
Bullshit, Swith, everyone knows every woman is a yandere.
:stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11: Just talk with them. Find something they like. Give them room to indulge and encourage that indulgence. Try and transpose that indulgence to different topics by relating both the topic(s) and the process(es).
Swith - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11 I wouldn't "tell them". I would approach them and offer to help them grow as a writer. If they don't want help, that's the end of that. However, if it's my own RP (where I'm the OP), I have a line minimum rule, I'll boot them if the player won't make any attempt to meet that expectation.(editado)
Ghant - Today at 7:01 PM
Q11: This came up in a previous panel. I'd explain that they should think about the following things: who, what, when, where and why? Think about those things, write about those things, expand upon those things. That will make a one or two line post grow like a chia pet.
Swith - Today at 7:01 PM
Gren.Agy - Today at 7:01 PM
Question 11: Ask them about details you'd need to respond to their post.
For example, if all a player does is have their character walk in and spout a one-liner, ask them what they're wearing? Other characters would size them up based on clothing and appearance, so that will be required in their post for others to respond to rather than ignore them. What do they smell like? How's their accent? Are they carrying weapons? What kind of faces did they make upon walking in?
All these details will naturally expand the player's post and gently remind them what kind of blind spots they have that players need filled in so they can craft appropriate responses.
Gren - Today at 7:02 PM
Q11: Politely tell them its difficult to craft a response to their post without some more details. Ask them to elaborate on things.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:03 PM
Q11: Ask for further information, encourage them to expand on the given material. "I'm having a hard time getting a read on this post, is your character mad about <thing>? I'm just not really sure how to set up a response from such a brief post."
Giovenith - Today at 7:03 PM
Q11: This has been mentioned before, but make a line-limit from the start. If you just give people free reign for the post length, there will be lazy people who take advantage of it. You don't have to demand a full paragraph from people, but generally demanding about three or four lines will force people to stretch their brains for more information. You can also politely ask them to put in a little more detail and help them if they're having trouble.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:03 PM
All else fails, if it's your RP, as Swith said: "I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave."
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:04 PM
Coming out with a blunt, "Write more than just a one-liner!", while ernest, is liable to put the person straight ont the defensive, and then less likely to listen to your advice. :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 7:04 PM
Friendly interruption, we have an extra panelist for the last half an hour, an N&I Mentor and the person who runs iiwiki: Santh!
Swith - Today at 7:04 PM
Nods A last resort. If we can't pull info out, and they refuse to budge, there's no way to work around it.
Santh - Today at 7:05 PM
Hello, sorry for the lateness
Ghant - Today at 7:05 PM
If they won't budge, you have to do what Kyrusia said, but after saying that, you should put a hand on your holster too :stuck_out_tongue:
Agy - Today at 7:05 PM
welcome santh!
Giovenith - Today at 7:05 PM
Some people just need help. Some people are determined to be lazy. Help the former, kick the later.
Vocenae - Today at 7:05 PM
Q11: Approach them through telegram or if you're using a chat client, via PM. Talk to them and see why they posted such a short post, and why you'd prefer to see longer posts. If they express they're having trouble, then suggest adding details like what is the character wearing, the texture of, say, a table they might be sitting at. If it cold in the place they are? So on and so forth. Don't be afraid to ask them if they would like some help and examples of how /you/ might approach the post.
Swith - Today at 7:05 PM
You really do save yourself some heartache by giving players initial criteria. "No one liners, no asterisk play, no colored fonts to denote the speaker." etc
Vocenae - Today at 7:05 PM
^
Giovenith - Today at 7:05 PM
^^^
Santh - Today at 7:05 PM
Colored fonts are the bane of my eyes
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:05 PM
^^^^
Giovenith - Today at 7:06 PM
Especially when they pick a terrible, hard-to-read color.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:06 PM
And if you do use formatting as an indicative - such as 'This' for internal thought processes - then keep it fucking consistent across posts.
Ghant - Today at 7:06 PM
Thank you for telling me your weakness, Santh :stuck_out_tongue:
Zark - Today at 7:06 PM
Moving onto Question 12 by Rhodevus: "How would you write multiple character views of the same scene?"
Swith - Today at 7:06 PM
Colored fonts and asterisks are the calling card of someone with the imagination necessary to game, but not the experience to do it properly. Those are the people I enjoy helping the most.
Agy - Today at 7:06 PM
Oh yeah set some basic guidelines for legibility. Colored fonts, weird sizes, one-liners are just no-nos. I thought the question focused more on expanding a player who isn't super problematic, just kind of terse, though
Ghant - Today at 7:07 PM
Q12: I use break lines between POVs to keep them seperate. I do this using BBC code to try to make it as apparent as possible that there's a transition to another POV taking place.
Agy - Today at 7:07 PM
Question 12: Weave them together.
Characters don't all react at the same time, and their physical reactions can often be described one-after-the-other in place of having a POV paragraph for each. Meld them together naturally to make the scene fun but also informative about how all the characters are reacting.
Swith - Today at 7:07 PM
Zark, can they clarify that a bit? View as in mental point of view, or views as in the scenery/situation around them?(editado)
Kyrusia - Today at 7:08 PM
Q12: Same way I write one, simply with an added perspective as broken. It's relatively rare - and, personally, jarring - to include multiple character-level perspectives without separating them in some manner. If it's simply a matter of exposing how the other characters are reacting without their given perspective, then remember to maintain the perspective you have confined yourself to (limited, omniscient, etc.).
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:09 PM
Q12: You can skew what the characters observe and do, based on their own inherent biases and experiences as well, which can keep the scene interesting even if it's being rehashed. Definitely do something to delinate when you're switching perspectives though, otherwise it will get real confusing real quick
Santh - Today at 7:09 PM
Q12 Fluidly. Though, first I would ask if multiple characters actually need to have their perspective given in any particular post. Can you stick to one per post? There is a good chance that will work out better for you, and there's a reason that Third Person Limited is the go-to for most non-YA fiction. If you have a good reason for the omniscience, then, well... see Kyrusia(editado)
Not his response. Just stare at him intently
In any given post, I write from the perspective of a single character almost every time
Ghant - Today at 7:10 PM
Q12: To elaborate on what Santh said, I never use multiple POVs to describe the same scene or occurance, otherwise it becomes redundant. What I will do is have characters reflect on that scene or occurance after the fact, to provide some insight into their perspective.
Swith - Today at 7:10 PM
If it's for scenery/setting, I simply have the character react/interact to what's actually causing them to react. One character may be looking at his watch because he's bored. The other is focused on the instructor standing in front of the class.
If it's mental, it's alright if your characters disagree with each other. Nobody likes a "ME TOO!" all the time.
Zark - Today at 7:10 PM
Clarification provided by Rhodevus: "let's say for example your 4 police characters are all trying to stop a robbery. How would you write a scene/scenes that incorporates all the different views, while still making it feel like a single robbery scene"
Kyrusia - Today at 7:10 PM
I'm gawjuss.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:10 PM
Q12: A character who is paranoid for example, might see a scene and pay attention to the likely areas danger and threat could come from. A character who is more trusting might not even be cognizant of the potential threat and focus on some non-hazardous detail that the paranoid one missed
Swith - Today at 7:10 PM
^^^
Giovenith - Today at 7:12 PM
Q12: You need to have the ability to get into another person's head and put yourself in their shoes, first and foremost. Even if you're not writing in first person, we should still be able to understand how a particular character views the world when the focus is on them. A book I'm reading, while in third person, takes turns focusing on different characters per chapter and the language and diction noticeably changes based on who is the focus. One of the characters, for example, is an obvious psychopath, and so the descriptions in his chapters become choppier and more matter-of-fact in order to highlight his cold thinking as opposed to the normal characters. Whereas a normal character might come with the writing, "The blood was a grisly sight, ruining his shirt and staining the pavement," the psychopath might instead just have it as, "He bled. It got all over the place and he made a mental note to buy some bleach later." Simple and cut.
When needing to focus on multiple viewpoints, switch between these tones based on who is being focused on and try to find how to make the switch natural.
Agy - Today at 7:12 PM
Question 12 (revised): Have it come across in their responses. If you want to convey mental stuff then split it into different paragraphs for clarity, but actions can often speak for themselves. A more paranoid officer might raise their weapon immediately while a more naive one might call out and figure out what's going on.
Santh - Today at 7:12 PM
Q12 addition That's probably the perfect time to have a key perspective. They're likely all discussing, so you can get the thoughts of the others into the post just as well, while having the lens of one. Third Person Limited is powerful despite its name. It's definitely easier to fit into for the reader
Zark - Today at 7:13 PM
Question 13, provided by Insaeldor: "How should non-linear narrative be handled in RPing?"
Agy - Today at 7:13 PM
I gotta drop out but I'll try and answer questions if I get back on-time. See y'all!
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:13 PM
Q13: Sounds like a job for time dilation!
Swith - Today at 7:13 PM
Non-linear, as in groups are in the same setting but moving at different paces?
Zark - Today at 7:13 PM
Later, Agy takes chair away
Kyrusia - Today at 7:14 PM
Or "non-linear" as in the story does not follow the traditional, linear structure of beginning-middle-end, but is perspective and temporally skewed?
Ghant - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13: I'd recommend through flashbacks from a character's POV, maybe not the same character for each flashback, but generally revealing past occurances that way in order to keep the narrative expedient.
Santh - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13 Easiest way is a noticeable break and some nice formatting letting you know it's in the past and where it is.
Six months ago
San Gianpiero, Santheres
I'm not sure if that's the best way
But it works
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:14 PM
Q13: Kinda a given in RPing, because some people are more active, and some plot threads may move at a faster pace. It's really helpful to keep notes, or some sort of master timeline so that all your players can keep straight who's doing what in which location/time
Ghant - Today at 7:14 PM
As Santh indicated, I use italics for flashback scenes.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:15 PM
Formatting, context clues, or both.
Santh - Today at 7:15 PM
well, I wouldn't italicize a whole paragraph
Ghant - Today at 7:15 PM
Even if the whole paragraph is a flashback?
Vocenae - Today at 7:15 PM
Q13: Short answer, probably not entirely correct, but Fluid time is also a thing. At least in FT.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:15 PM
A giant block of italicized text is painful.
Santh - Today at 7:15 PM
Just separate into a different scene. Scene break it off. It is, after all, a new scene
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:16 PM
I sometimes use blocktext for extended flashbacks- it visually splits the flashback from the main flow, but isn't as eye-tiring as a block of italics
Santh - Today at 7:16 PM
Treat it like any new scene. I like using center-aligned plus signs or an asterisk or something(editado)
Ghant - Today at 7:16 PM
You all wait to tell me this now! I've written pages of italicized flashback scenes, grr. :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:16 PM
[/hr] is your friend.
(SEE WHAT I DID THERE?! SEGUEING!)
Giovenith - Today at 7:16 PM
Q13: It takes a lot of damn practice to be able to write non-linear stories, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone who isn't already very comfortable with traditional linear stories. Generally, the non-linear format is primarily utilized in order to create plot twists, a character performing an action either without clear reason or for seemingly mundane reason and then filling in their true, surprising reason later. This requires a good grasp on reader expectation and the aforementioned nature of escalation and climax.
Santh - Today at 7:17 PM
@ghant I didn't want to crimp your style
Kyrusia - Today at 7:17 PM
Also the "drop into action" technique; there is a technical term for this, Reppy may know, but I cannot recall it.
Zark - Today at 7:17 PM
Clarification by Insaeldor: "As in a story where you start at the end and meander through the story at various points to give a whole story. A classical example would Pulp Fiction but several other works have done. Another example would be a story which starts in the middle and works it's way towards a end while constructing a beginning."
Swith - Today at 7:17 PM
It comes down to your style. I'll do flashbacks a variety of ways, depending on my mood and approach. Usually blocktext or even a [ list]flashback text[ list] can be handy.
However, I'll also use trailers.
Mary's eyes seemed to look through John...
[horrid memory flashback]
... "What were you saying?" Mary mentally shook off the bitter feelings
Santh - Today at 7:18 PM
in media res?
Kyrusia - Today at 7:18 PM
Then be very, very careful in your deployment of context clues and linking the independent, narrative elements in a manner that constructs a clear narrative structure, even when the individual pieces of the puzzle are not in alignment.
Yes, Santh. TY. :stuck_out_tongue:
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:19 PM
Q13 addition: That's generally used as a tactic to add tension and hide information from the reader. It can be very effective, but difficult in an RP setting. You'll want to have a lot more preplanning ahead of time, because the plot is going to be somewhat more on-rails with that setup since the endpoint is already locked down.
Zark - Today at 7:20 PM
Question 14 (LAST QUESTION), provided by Lykos: "Given most of us mostly write in the sense of roleplay, how should GM/DM/OP's set up narratives and stories to allow for players to have freedom and the ability to chose their charcater's own direction? Or is it better to set up a solid story and guide people through it instead? How much control is good to preserve a narrative in a roleplay story, in other words."
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:21 PM
Q14: It really varies, depending on the OP and on the players. Some players want the story handed to them to experience; otherwise want the freedom to find the story through their own actions. The best way to find that balance is generally going to be by talking to your players in the OOC thread while thrashing out the setup for your RP
Swith - Today at 7:22 PM
Q15 On the rails vs off the rails. A railroad game offers little chance for characters to choose. An OP might offer several choices, but these are mapped in the OP's head already.
Off the rails - let them have fun, but have an overarching plot to keep them engaged, or they'll end up bored and messing up your setting.
Santh - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14 Have hooks everywhere for people to grab on to. Your narrative is best as an overaching plot and people can work around and within, and you should try to tie what they do to it, but people should be able to branch out a bit. If you want to tell a very specific story that doesn't really vary from the main narrative, then you should probably just write a story
Swith - Today at 7:22 PM
^ exactly.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14: For me, this depends on your goals (and theirs) for the story and the style of the story itself.
I generally always recommend pre-planning of the narrative's key points - things that must be met and occur - in order for the story itself to be told and flow in a cohesive and telling manner. The rest, one can improvise and leave open to individual players, allowing them to construct their sub-plots as desired; even so, I would recommend weaving these plots either into the theme or directly into the over-arching plot points that have previously been pre-planned.
Ghant - Today at 7:22 PM
Q14: I think it depends on the story in question. Certain ralroaded RPs require certain restrictions in order to make the story play out according to the OP's wishes. Generally though, writers want to feel like they can have some impact on the course of the story, and that their characters matter to it and have meaning generally. So I favor a mixed approach, one where the course of the thread and the expectations thereof are conveyed, but also allowing writers to have the freedom to write out their characters' actions in the thread to their satisfaction, provided it's not disruptive.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:23 PM
If you have players who are comfortable having the plot on rails for them to react to, cool, plot out your story and take 'em for a ride. If you have players who want to discover the story themselves, plan for as many unexepected turns as possible and set tactfully placed plot hooks to guide them along without herding them there.
Giovenith - Today at 7:23 PM
Q14: People didn't audition for a play, they created characters that they intended to act as individuals. If you make the story too precise, people aren't going to feel like they're actually playing anything and are just mundanely following steps you set for them. However, you do need some structure, otherwise people will run away with the story and defeat its whole purpose. "All roads lead to Rome" - give them a lot of roads to take, but ultimately, make sure they all go towards the necessary destination.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:24 PM
My DnD group's DM said that he plans out at least two possible solutions to challenges... and most of the time our party still comes up with a solution he didn't think of. :wink:
Santh - Today at 7:24 PM
And it should always be open to those solutions
Swith - Today at 7:25 PM
Yes. Please don't force your players to conform to your rigid plan. Don't limit their characters by making every action "that won't work. NO!"
Santh - Today at 7:25 PM
I mean, some solutions are dumb and should be avoided. But then you just weave that into the story. So, your characters thought that tricking the giant turtle monster into going over a cliff would work? Well, it's got high intelligence. It ain't gonna cliff dive
so, they try that, it doesn't work. They flee to rethink
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:26 PM
If you want to give your players an open sandbox, expect to spend some effort on your worldbuilding, and be ready to have to improvise on the fly. A well-developed setting can make it easier to improvise later.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:26 PM
^
Swith - Today at 7:26 PM
^ Yes, exactly.
Giovenith - Today at 7:26 PM
Ja!
Kyrusia - Today at 7:26 PM
Especially since well-developed settings tend to naturally have a rational flow as to their individual pieces, making on-the-fly construction of new pieces fairly easy.
Santh - Today at 7:26 PM
That's why I worldbuild the hell out of everything I do
many things will never come up
but they can!
Ghant - Today at 7:27 PM
The groundwork is at least laid.
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:28 PM
And players can be endlessly creative when it comes to problemsolving
Swith - Today at 7:28 PM
That's what makes RP so much fun.
Kyrusia - Today at 7:28 PM
Though, sometimes you do have to put your foot down for the overall weight of the plot.
Santh - Today at 7:28 PM
yes, sometimes you do
Ghant - Today at 7:29 PM
Or in Kyrusia's case, your hoof :stuck_out_tongue:
Kyrusia - Today at 7:29 PM
Santh - Today at 7:29 PM
No, he'll crush the plot!
Kyrusia - Today at 7:29 PM
;-;
Zark - Today at 7:30 PM
Alright, people, we're running out of time and there were regrettably a few questions we couldn't get to, but I believe this panel has been quite interesting! So, with that said...
Reploid Productions - Today at 7:30 PM
DM's plan: The party is on a ship attacked by a kraken, the plan is that it sinks the ship, stranding them in this other location. Party bard: Uses ability that teleports the kraken away briefly so thta the ship can escape. DM's new plan: Kraken did enough damage to the ship that it sinks anyway!
Zark - Today at 7:30 PM
Thank you all for your participation! This wraps up tonight's 7PM panel. Our upcoming schedule is:
Tonight:
Thread Marketing and Formatting — 9PM Eastern
Midnight Madness: The Revolving Door (Oddball #2) — 12AM Eastern
Thursday, July 13th, 2017
Writing, Exposition, and the Narrative (Early Hour) — 12PM Eastern
NS Sports: Mechanics and Roleplaying (Guest) — 4PM Eastern
Worldbuilding and Related (Late Hour) — 8PM Eastern
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: “Writing, Exposition and the Narrative”
TIME: COMPLETED
