Koth - Today at 8:59 PM
inb4 swith
Swith - Today at 8:59 PM
snorts And koth is raiding already.
**NS Roleplay Symposium 2017**
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Observations on Gameplay"
TIME: 9 - 10:30 PM EST, Monday, July 10th
Good evening. Welcome, panelists. I'm Swith, your discussion moderator for this session.
Tonight’s topic, “Observations on Gameplay”, has its basis in Lamoni’s “Observations on Gameplay” mini-lecture. If you have not already done so, it might be helpful to read it through.
Military gameplay (R/D) is a touchy subject for many. While gameplay and roleplay are divided, they do not have to be. Understanding both gameplay and gameplayers is the first step that roleplayers can take in healing the rifts between the two communities. Simply taking the time to learn what gameplaying is, and who gameplayers are, can reduce tensions considerably.
As Crazygirl defines it, “Gameplay (as opposed to roleplay) is what happens in the game and that which is related to it. At a basic level, it involves playing NationStates the game, but it also encompasses the organisation of this gameplaying, which often takes place on regional offsite forums. Gameplay includes (but is not limited to) nation management, regional politics and the invader/defender game.”
The Invader/Defender game (or R/D) involves regions. Regions are a hardwired feature on NationStates. Our accounts are automatically routed to one the moment we sign up. We choose to remain in our initial region home, or we strike out to find a region that aligns with our interests. In time, we might found our own regions. However, like it or not, regions - and thus R/D - will touch our lives as roleplayers regardless of our level of participation in gameplay.
...cont
Though we will field questions relating to gameplay basics, we’ll primarily focus on our observations of military gameplay as a whole: how it impacts us, whether or not it is a vital element for roleplayers disinterested in regional politics, and so on.
For this to work, we should attempt to get past the hurdles that usually stall these discussions:
1 R/D is an allowed element. That isn’t likely to change soon. This is discussion better approached on-site with site administration.
2 We acknowledge a player demand for “organization regions”. We can touch upon criteria necessary to separate Organization regions from Roleplay and Roleplayer regions, and the impact it will have on R/D.
3 We do not have tools that allow us to completely opt out of R/D at this time (other than the ones given to us as Founders, WAD, or Officers).
4 This is not a place to air past grievances. Respect for the person is necessary even if you dislike military gameplay or roleplay.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us a little about your involvement, if any, with gameplay.
(link to mini-lecuture: nsrps.boards.net/thread/21/roleplayers-observations-on-ns-gameplay)
BEGIN
::
Kyrusia - Today at 9:00 PM
I'm Kyru. I am a Game Moderator, N&I RP Mentor specializing in Future Tech, and I also oversee the Mentor Program. Relevant to this panel, I also am one of the founders (I control the founder account) of a "region for roleplayers" dedicated largely to FT and networking of FT roleplayers; why this is relevant is because this region also happens to be unpassworded, but uses other means to protect itself (and remain uninvolved) in military gameplay.(edited)
Koth - Today at 9:00 PM
Nice to meet you all, my name is Ambroscus Koth. My main nation is Reventus Koth since I got deleted during the Predator scandal last year. I first came to NationStates in 2007, but I only really started playing for real in 2011. My journey led me down the path of Gameplay, and more specifically raiding. I've been an active raider for over 5 years now, and my achievements include becoming WA Delegate of Osiris twice, co-founding a successful roleplaying raider organization, and becoming a high ranking officer in famous raiding orgs such as The Black Riders, DEN, and The Black Hawks. I was the creator/host of a popular Gameplay radio show called News With Booze until recently. I also wrote SC#172 Repeal "Commend Tiago Silva", if that tickles your fancy. I personally have been involved in many raids on roleplay regions, notably Sapphire, Esquarium, and Ankh Mauta.
I promise that's the most text you're getting out of me at once tonight.(edited)
Lamoni - Today at 9:02 PM
I am Lamoni. I'm an RP mentor who has extensive contacts in the Gameplay world, as well as knowledge of what gameplay can do to roleplaying regions, and what roleplayers to do in order to keep the worst from happening. I'm also an example that the two communities can in fact peacefully co-exist.
Ghant - Today at 9:02 PM
Hey all, my name is Ghant, I'm a veteran N&I RPer specializing in PT and MT roleplay. I've encountered RND elements in the past, and may have some insights on the subject.
Zwangzug - Today at 9:02 PM
I'm Zwangzug. I'm a longtime sports roleplayer, and newbie issues editor. For a couple years, I defended as part of the United Defenders League; I became a lieutenant of that organization. I'm not otherwise very involved in the gameplay world.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:03 PM
Good evening, everyone, and thank you for having me here tonight. I'm Todd, and I've played this game since about 2005. I initially spawned in a Pacific a long time ago, then moved on to the region Poland in order to learn more about Polish culture. I stayed there for a few years before moving on and trying new things. One of the organizations I founded long ago was the National Slavic Organization, and it helped me understand a defender perspective. I leader moved to raiding and founded Fox Rite. Neither organizations were particular prominent, but through them I was able to glean perspectives from both. I then moved on to feeder regions (Pacific regions) a few years later and dealt with the toils of gameplay there. I consider myself more of a roleplayer these days, but I am always willing to help out if I believe it is alright to do so.
Swith - Today at 9:03 PM
Welcome, Panelists. Thank you for taking time tonight to answer questions. One of our panelists, Cerillium, will arrive later pending laptop issues.
Question 1 posed by Gren - "Do the raiders present feel it is at all possible to end the dispute between R/D and RP in a manner that is fair? What would it take to acheive?" Also, do the Defenders present see any resolution?
Koth - Today at 9:04 PM
Oh god.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:04 PM
Lovely question to begin with.
Koth - Today at 9:04 PM
Yeah, I mean who cares about softballs right?
In all seriousness
The dispute is pretty intrinsic because no matter what else raiders decide to do, if we raid a roleplay region it's seen as a direct attack and not part of the greater R/D proxy war. Unless raiders colelctively decide to leave roleplay regions alone for good, I doubt there will ever be a time that there isn't at least a little bit of tension between the two groups.
But let's say it is possible to end the dispute fairly
Zwangzug - Today at 9:06 PM
I was what you might call a "moralist defender," in that I didn't find the gameplay side of the game very fun as an end in itself; I just felt it was worthwhile to participate to help natives from having their regions messed up/taken over. So any "resolution" that I'd envision would probably not be very fair to those who enjoy playing the regional side (some of whom are defenders and actually like the thrill of the fight for almost the same way raiders do!)
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:07 PM
Answering as a defender, as long as there is injustice and as long as there are regions invaded , there will always be business for defenders. I know raiders always look for challenges and prizes, and defenders always look to meet them on said challenges, but honestly the two could never exist without the other. Raiders need defenders just as much as defenders need raiders, even if they have had some really toxic interactions or went beyond the legal means of this game to do so. For this aspect of the game to survive, it may sound counter-intuitive, but there must never be an all-encompasing resolution. The fact that conflict exists is why that community thrives.
Cer - Today at 9:07 PM
Apologies for being tardy. I'm Cerillium, a P2TM Mentor. I'm a former raider (pre 2010) and recently got involved with gameside again.
Swith - Today at 9:08 PM
Welcome, Cer. No worries if you lose connection. We'll understand.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:08 PM
Swith will understand. I'll mock you for my own personal amusement.
:stuck_out_tongue:
Lamoni - Today at 9:08 PM
Wasn't expecting a hardball question right off the bat.
Cer - Today at 9:09 PM
:stuck_out_tongue:
Koth - Today at 9:09 PM
The solution I'm trying to go for now is showing roleplayers that not all raids are destructive, and can be fun to participate in even as a native "victim". As a member of The Black Hawks, who have raided many roleplay regions over the years, I've participated in raids that have not relocated a single roleplayer from their region and have actually actively engaged in some roleplay int he RMB during the invasion.
Swith - Today at 9:09 PM
Question 2 posed by Eridani Imperium - "A question for our raiders: how do they decide which region to invade?"
Koth - Today at 9:09 PM
Depends on a lot of factors, really.
I mean the first consideration is how long we want to be occupying the region for. If we're going for the long game, we want to hit a target that we can feasibly overtake with our manpower and actually build up enough influence in to really make any difference.
If we're just "tagging", as long as your region lets the delegate edit the tags, flag, and world factbook entry, it's good enough for us.
There's obviously other considerations as well. We wouldn't want to hit regions that have strong ties to our friends or allies, for instance.
Swith - Today at 9:11 PM
Question 3 posed by Ched - "Is raiding like a sport to raiders? Like is it the same mindset as one would have when playing football?" The same question is posed to Defenders.
Koth - Today at 9:12 PM
I think there's something to be said about that comparison, yeah. There's definitely a lot of physical and strategic energy put into it.
Cer - Today at 9:12 PM
Q3 There's a rush to it. it's not seen as "Let's go attack people!" Rather, it's "let's see if we can take an objective". It's a challenge.
Koth - Today at 9:13 PM
And there's absolutely a competitive nature to it as well, we're constantly jostling with defenders and racing each other (and ourselves!) into the region before it updates.
Zwangzug - Today at 9:13 PM
There's a little bit of adrenaline rush involved and a "us against the clock," trying to test your performance, as a defender. I think some defenders view it as more of a playful rivalry, I'm not sure I would put it in those terms.
Swith - Today at 9:13 PM
Question 4 posed by Giovenith, "Do some raiders take the current activities of a region into consideration before launching the raid? Like, for example, if the natives are trying to help a player out through a personal crisis, has there ever been a time where the raid was put off until that was done with out of personal courtesy?"
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:13 PM
Defending, in my opinion, is a lot like industry work: "something is always on fire". There will always be battles and there will always be conflict. But, one must be choosy in how one picks their battles. Of course, the large brawls are what brings everyone out of the woodwork. It's the spirit of competition, like a roleplay, but a roleplay one wants to win because of the efforts one put into it. But, just like a roleplay, sometimes losing one can be a win in the long run in terms of respect.
Cer - Today at 9:14 PM
Good point, Todd
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:14 PM
((That was for Question 3, apologies))
Koth - Today at 9:15 PM
I can't recall a scenario off the top of my head where that has happened, if I'm being honest with you. In fact, sometimes we even wait until influential nations are at their most vulnerable game-wise (being on vacation, for instance) to strike.
But I suppose if that sort of scenario WAS to arise
It would definitely be considered, especially if long-term occupation is on the agenda.
I can't speak for all raiders when I say that, however.
Lamoni - Today at 9:16 PM
Raiders are going to raid, but most of them are not jerks about it, in other words.
Koth - Today at 9:16 PM
nods
Cer - Today at 9:16 PM
If I know of a crisis, such as a Founder passing away or a WAD in hospital IRL - personal issues that will affect the emotions of the whole - I have passed word to leadership. I can't say whether or not my word was taken into consideration.
Clarify: Raider leadership.
Swith - Today at 9:17 PM
Question 5 posed by Jutomi~ - "Is there ever tension between raiders/defenders, or amongst themselves?"
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:17 PM
Oh wow
Yes
Koth - Today at 9:17 PM
That's a 100% yes.
Cer - Today at 9:17 PM
Heh. Yes.
Lamoni - Today at 9:17 PM
I've seen it, so yes.
Koth - Today at 9:17 PM
Like, our entire political metagame is based around conflict with each other.
The only question is how serious it gets.
And raiders are constantly up each other's asses, pardon my French. We have the responsibility to hold each other accountable after the Predator scandal now more than ever.
Zwangzug - Today at 9:19 PM
As far as tension within a single defender organization can go, think about how much range there is between immature, goof-off people and serious, "shut up and get down to business" people even on the roleplay side, then translate that into an offsite chat. There's also that spectrum of "moralistic versus fun-for-its-own-sake," plus
sorry, didn't mean to send
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:19 PM
Defenders and raiders can be friends in a way that the Montegues and Capulets sometimes talk to one another. There is in-fighting within these groups, too, mostly due to one group wanting to out-perform another. So, there's competition between raiders and defenders, but also between raiders and raiders and defenders and defenders
Zwangzug - Today at 9:19 PM
being independent versus enmeshed in the wider gameplay scene, although I'm not as familiar with that
Swith - Today at 9:19 PM
FOLLOWUP posed by Gren - "With Cer's response to Q3 in mind, would an "opt-in" (or opt-out) for R/D be at all viable? In a similar vein to the "Peacemode" option on a competing game (those who have played said game will understand what I'm talking about). Why or why not?"
Koth - Today at 9:19 PM
Oh I bet Zwang could write an essay on internal UDL strife :stuck_out_tongue:
Zwangzug - Today at 9:20 PM
I didn't take great notes
Cer - Today at 9:20 PM
Followup: I think the feature would be abused.
Lamoni - Today at 9:20 PM
As do I.
Zwangzug - Today at 9:20 PM
I was just like "who are all these gameplayers, tell me when to jump"
Koth - Today at 9:20 PM
Opting in would basically kill the entire proxy war metagame. There's no way it wouldn't be abused.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:21 PM
Opt-out is infeasible, as most regions would likely opt-out. In general, if one wants to be safe from raids, ensure one has a reliable founder
Koth - Today at 9:21 PM
Actual gameplay regions would opt out as soon as they found themselves vulnerable.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:21 PM
Having a founder is your opt-out
Koth - Today at 9:21 PM
Which defeats the entire purpose of the game.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:21 PM
that's it.
Swith - Today at 9:21 PM
Question 5 posed by Sylvia - "What was your reaction to the Predator punishments? Has it made you more or less involved in GP?"
Kyrusia - Today at 9:21 PM
Likewise, for the record. It would almost certainly be abused, and as my personal opinion: any real system of deciding who can use a "peacemode" would default to a judgment call. Jugment calls of this variety are prone to being nasty.
Lamoni - Today at 9:21 PM
You would see a lot of roleplayers opting out, and that would kill gameplay.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:22 PM
No. But I do believe gameplaying communities take things more personally than roleplaying communities.(edited)
Kyrusia - Today at 9:22 PM
I'll be opting out of this question for obvious reasons.
Koth - Today at 9:22 PM
I had a very detailed interview with Jakker for RaiderCon on this subject, but for those of you (most of you) who wouldn't touch RaiderCon with a 20 foot pole I'll try to summarize very quickly.(edited)
I was very hurt, my main was deleted, and I found myself not at all as invested in the game as I was previously.
It's really hard to participate in the raider game without a WA nation.
Not impossible mind you, but you're constantly on the sidelines.
I couldn't even do my typical Gameplay political snark out of fear of getting warned and having my sentence extended.
Cer - Today at 9:24 PM
It shocked the community. Most people were unaware that they were using something illegal. Mods handled it well but, IMHO, it should never have happened. Trust no one.
Koth - Today at 9:24 PM
(Which happened!)
Swith - Today at 9:25 PM
I've asked Kyru to give a brief summary of the Predator scandal, for the record.
Ghant - Today at 9:25 PM
Can we get a summary?
Koth - Today at 9:25 PM
That would be what Kyru is writing.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:26 PM
Asked by Swith to provide a basic summary of Predator, you can find the link here: forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=373231&sid=e25ac76b6347170e1a6112e0acd37054
To summarize: Predator was a script (a type of program) that seemed deliberately designed to break various rules regarding script usage. It also constituted a collaboration with DOS players. To quote Eluvatar, our Tech Modling:
1. The tool [did] not set a user agent identifying itself, which violates the API Terms of use.
2. The tool greatly [exceeded] the rate limits set in the Script Rules for non-API requests, making requests at 5-10 times the permitted speed.
(edited)
Swith - Today at 9:26 PM
nods Thank you, Kyru. Much appreciated.
Question 6 posed by alev - "Could you go over how raids (and defenses) are organized, i.e. what sorts of systems/communications/etc. raiders use to capture a large amount of regions in a single update?" Briefly, mind. We don't want to give away any secrets.
Koth - Today at 9:27 PM
I'll obviously go over the raider side of things here.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:28 PM
If it doesn't involve ritual sacrifice, you're doing it wrong. Just sayin'. :wink:
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:28 PM
I can't really answer to that. My raider / defender experience was before the utilization of scripts and the likes. That meant watching a region for 2-3 weeks, writing down its update time (back then there was only one update time), coming up with an update range, connecting with other orgs (while avoiding the leaky ones unless it was a huge shin-dig), and moving people in some massive co-ordination over MSN messenger or IRC.
Koth - Today at 9:29 PM
For longer term occupations, an organization will almost always want to call in allies to help with the initial jump and reinforce afterwards. Raider leaders are almost all in touch with one another, so arranging these joint ventures isn't usually too much of an issue. A big problem is scheduling: many times a plan will have to be re-written because an ally is already on an op of their own, or the needed endorsements can't be found, etc.
As for tag raiding
Cer - Today at 9:29 PM
The same. I haven't a clue how to approach things now. In honesty, I've stalled my first jump back into R/D due to this symposium. :stuck_out_tongue:
Koth - Today at 9:29 PM
which is what you describe as capturing a lot of regions in one update
The Black Hawks typically just sent out a set of pings to our active forces and plan a run, when enough people answer the commander arranges a list to hit and they just go for it. It might take a few hours or so to set up, but only one person has to do it. The rest just follow orders.
Swith - Today at 9:30 PM
Question 7 posed by a panelist - "On average and in general, as I know there are always outliers/exceptions, do raiders ever take the derision slung their way personally? What of in instances of an RP region? In addition: how do you think things like the "victory chants" during a raid shold be taken - or, in the least, how do you prefer relative to an RP region simply wishing to keep their region largely in one piece and without animosity?"
Koth - Today at 9:31 PM
(I'll go into more detail on Q6 in the chat afterwards)(edited)
Swith - Today at 9:31 PM
Thanks, Koth. That would be appreciated.
Koth - Today at 9:32 PM
One of the big criticisms we get a lot is that raiders are literal bullies because of what we do, and for those of us who have experienced bullying (some of us quite a bit), it hits home and gets us angry. I can't speak for everyone when it comes to what gets taken personally, but I know that it has been in the past.
Cer - Today at 9:33 PM
Raiders that also roleplay - those I know of in P2TM - sit on their hands when the topic comes up. Often, the topic is due to heated emotions after a raid. These RPer/Raiders bear the abusive namecalling ("bullies", "rapists" etc) as well as the accusations of "raiders don't understand roleplayers" with a fair amount of grace and dignity.
Koth - Today at 9:34 PM
As for the second part of the question, I guess victory chants are all part of the game. You're either winning or you're not, and part of the political game we play is playing up our victories.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:34 PM
I mean, there was the whole Mal ribbing with roleplayers during that SC proposal several years ago
Swith - Today at 9:34 PM
Cer, is it safe to say that many raiders don't use recognizable names when using their roleplay accounts?
Koth - Today at 9:34 PM
oh man Liberate Haven
that's a FUN topic
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:34 PM
Yes.
Cer - Today at 9:34 PM
Yes.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:35 PM
Oddly had a rather amusing quote in my sig from Mall until recently (to allow for Sympo linkage).(edited)
Lamoni - Today at 9:35 PM
Liberate Haven was a shitstorm, all around.
Koth - Today at 9:35 PM
Heh, it works in reverse too. My current Field Marshal used a different name when he was a roleplayer :smiley:
Swith - Today at 9:35 PM
Question 8 posed by Giovenith - "Is it ever difficult to empathize with RP'ers when they lose work due to raiding? Basically, do you have trouble seeing it as as big of a deal as they do?"
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:36 PM
Can I answer this as a former raider this time?
Swith - Today at 9:36 PM
nods
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:36 PM
Neat-o. This is what caused me to retire as a raider.
Koth - Today at 9:36 PM
I always encourage people to back up their RMBs. Screenshots, folks! FireShot is a great tool for taking whole-page captures.
Cer - Today at 9:36 PM
^^
Koth - Today at 9:37 PM
Regions are temporary. Your work should not be.
Lamoni - Today at 9:37 PM
Also remember that your regional off-site forums are safe from raiding.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:37 PM
Seriously. Back it up. I would recommend never leaving detailed planning just lying on your RMB. Even if you just C&P to something like Google Docs: back up the info.
Koth - Today at 9:37 PM
This is important: ALL REGIONS EVENTUALLY CEASE TO EXIST. Even by accident. You never know when your founder is going to quit.(edited)
Ghant - Today at 9:37 PM
Q8: I can say as an RPer, by far the most annoying aspect of an RP region that I'm in being raided is the changes that are made to the WFE. All the links, information and text is replaced, embassies that we have for communication with other regions are canceled, and it's generally just really disruptive. Unless you have your WFE text saved, you'll have to totally rewrite it, and that's a pain in the butt.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:38 PM
Again, an active founder is your opt-out.
Lamoni - Today at 9:38 PM
That's why you should have copies of it.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:38 PM
And always document changes
Lamoni - Today at 9:38 PM
And a non-exec WA delegate
Ghant - Today at 9:38 PM
I'm the founder of an RP region that's been raided twice while my founder account was active.
Koth - Today at 9:38 PM
So yeah, I can get things getting messed up. You think it's never happened to me? My own regions have been raided, my first region was re-founded by Nazis. I took responsibility for it, because it was my fault I let the region become vulnerable.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:38 PM
Well, it appears the game has changed a little bit
Kyrusia - Today at 9:39 PM
Active founder, password (if desired), active regional officers with established protocols on how to handle invasions, and - very importantly - established protocols for how your natives should act in the event of an invasion.
Flaming a raider? Still flaming. You'll still get smacked for it.
Swith - Today at 9:39 PM
Question 9 posed by Gren - "It was previously stated that 'having an active Founder is the opt-out'. What is the suggestion for protecting regions with an immense history (and thus, cannot simply be abandoned), whose founders have CTE'd? Regarding screenshotting RMBs: it takes an incredibly long time to actually document it, even in a region without much RMB activity and has only been around for at most, 2 years, to say nothing of keeping the screenshots updated."
Lamoni - Today at 9:39 PM
Keeping backups is always the first line of defense.
Ghant - Today at 9:40 PM
Q9: Password. Haven, case in point.
Lamoni - Today at 9:40 PM
If your founder CTE's, you always have the option of refounding your region, and defenders will help with that. Case in point, the region that Todd belongs to, The East Pacific.
Cer - Today at 9:40 PM
Q9: if NS were to die tomorrow, all our data is lost. Regardless of RP or Gameside, it's on us to backup the things that matter most. As a roleplayer, I lost five years of IC and OOC data when our OSF's admin passed away unexpectantly. We were locked out. It was a hard lesson for me to learn.(edited)
Koth - Today at 9:40 PM
Everything on the internet is subject to deletion, yo. Even off-site forums, I've been the victim of forum destruction in the past as well. I don't know how else to tell you that you have to suck it up and back it up if you want to feel like your work is safe.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:40 PM
Get on top of it early on in the region's life. Have a member (or several) in the region who dedicates time to it. Otherwise, do most of it offsite - be it Discord, IRC, OSF, Docs, etc.
Otherwise, like it or not, it's going to be work.
Koth - Today at 9:40 PM
That goes for literally everything else in the digital realm. Keep 3 backups of your hard drive.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:40 PM
Candidly, RPing on the RMB's is kind of a meh idea for starters. Utilize offsite forums with a trusted source. To those who update the WFE, they should keep a text document of all WFE changes they have made.
Koth - Today at 9:41 PM
Yes.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:41 PM
Always document.
Lamoni - Today at 9:41 PM
ALWAYS.
Swith - Today at 9:41 PM
Question 10 posed by Giovenith - "How is the aesthetic of a R/D organization typically decided? We can see that a lot of raiders go for a "spooky" theme and defenders go for a "valiant" theme, but do you feel this is necessary to be taken seriously, or is it more up in the air?"
Koth - Today at 9:41 PM
I can't empathize with the idea that your work deserves to be immortal when you are taking no steps to ensure it.
Lamoni - Today at 9:42 PM
There are exceptions that i've seen to Q10. Arda 'En Estel for example, uses a steampunk theme.
Zwangzug - Today at 9:42 PM
I don't think the theme is what gets people to take you seriously, necessarily. I assume it's mostly just the founders' whims in general
Koth - Today at 9:42 PM
All things considered, I don't think a regional theme is strictly necessary but holy hell is it nice. Without a theme you're really just a generic region that has no appeal.
As for how they're decided, like Zwangzug said it's up to the founder(s). I made a region with an assassin theme because that's what we were into and we felt like that was appropriate for what we were trying to achieve
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:43 PM
Way better than the Tusken Raiders or the Defenders of Justice
Koth - Today at 9:44 PM
The most powerful defender organization at the moment is themed after the Grey Wardens in the Dragon Age series. They use this theme to justify their "grey" morality, which I think is interesting.
Swith - Today at 9:44 PM
Question 11 posed by Eridani Imperium - "How can a RP region better recover from a raider attack?"
Koth - Today at 9:45 PM
Keep backups of your WFE, tags, flag, etc. Hate to sound like a broken record, but that's the bulk of it.
There are tools that defenders use to help this process along if you don't have copies of your own.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:46 PM
Well, document, have a strong offsite community, and know how the game is played. Regions will get raided, best to ensure you are always prepared for it. As someone alluded to earlier, NS could one day go away, but the objective here is a strong RP community will survive even without Max Barry's smiling, bald face.
Lamoni - Today at 9:46 PM
You'll be wanting the entire region to work together in order to help recover from an attack. While the regional founder can boot out raiders in the region, you'll want to keep lots of back ups (WFE, tags, flag, what have you). Anything on your off-site forums should be safe. And if the raiders go for a long-term occupation, get help from defenders, fast!
Ghant - Today at 9:46 PM
Q11: I think having things like your region's WFE saved in a Word document on your computer is very helpful, as after the raid is over with you can just copy and paste it back into the WFE. Then it's a matter of undoing one at a time the things that the raiders changed. Embassy cancellations, regional flag, regional officers, etc.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:46 PM
Q11: Aside from taking the necessary precautions and steps to preserve not only their region from invasion, but its documentation from disruption?
Accept that raiders are people. Also, don't get in a tizzy over it. It'll take time, yes, to un-suppress posts and change back your WFE, but it's not the end of the world. It doesn't warrant you getting the Ominous Redtext™, no matter what it is.
Beyond that, just cooperate with one other. If anything, during a raid, take the initiative to try and get your hooks into some raiders. Invite them. Have some friendly banter with them.
Koth - Today at 9:47 PM
scratches head
Oh that wasnt a question
Okay I thought I was having an aneurysm
Lamoni - Today at 9:47 PM
You might get some of them to actually RP, though be wary of their loyalties.
Cer - Today at 9:47 PM
Also remember to breathe. As we saw with Ankh Mauta, some orgs do move on, leaving things in peace.
Lamoni - Today at 9:48 PM
Greater Dienstad once got raided, and we've been doing just fine ever since.
Swith - Today at 9:48 PM
Koth, that's my job.
Question 12 posed by Torii - "Have Raiders deliberately attacked RP Regions to because they were RPers in the past and they like the backlash? Or is nabbing an RP just prestigious because of their symbolism to P2TM/N&I? Or both?"
Koth - Today at 9:48 PM
hehe
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:48 PM
Honestly, a dying defender region is way more appealing
Koth - Today at 9:48 PM
Yes, it's happened. Mallorea and Riva specifically sought out the region Sapphire because he knew that roleplayers make a big fuss when they're raided.
But for the most part? Nah, it doesn't happen.
Ghant - Today at 9:49 PM
Q12: I heard that some raider groups were specifically targeting RPing regions following the Liberate Haven fiasco.
Cer - Today at 9:49 PM
If you're raiding to "hurt people that hurt you", get out of raiding. That's not what the game is about.
Koth - Today at 9:50 PM
Don't take this the wrong way or anything but I honestly don't believe that NSRP ever really factors into a raider's decision to hit a region unless someone makes a big deal about it to them.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:50 PM
True.
Kyrusia - Today at 9:50 PM
Q12: Have roleplayers ever deliberately gone after another roleplayer or group of roleplayers because they made a fuss over something they personally viewed as inconsequential and otherwise just moot? This is a rhetorical question, as I know the answer.
Koth - Today at 9:50 PM
As a general rule, not that there aren't exceptions(edited)
Cer - Today at 9:50 PM
RE NSRP - Otherwise, it's just targets. Whatever is available. Things to use for training, often.(edited)
Lamoni - Today at 9:51 PM
There are always going to be those who get pissy, but I can't really answer the question, because I haven't seen it happen. Maybe one of the others has.
Swith - Today at 9:51 PM
Question 13 posed by Sylvia - "What are the similarities between operations on different sides of R/D?"
Kyrusia - Today at 9:52 PM
Inb4shitposting...? ;P
Lamoni - Today at 9:52 PM
Cer - Today at 9:52 PM
Koth - Today at 9:52 PM
Well, from what I know we both use Discord for the most part to organize our troops. We both usually do these sorts of operations on a regional scale.
And yes, we both shitpost the FUCK out of raid/defense chats.
That's just science.
Lamoni - Today at 9:53 PM
Gameplayers shitpost at least as much, if not more than RPers do.
Koth - Today at 9:53 PM
Oh, and we both use tools and scripts to get the numbers we need.
Swith - Today at 9:53 PM
Question 14 posed by Eridani Imperium - Here's a curveball: Raiders, state what you like about the Defenders, and Defenders, state what you like about the Raiders."
Kyrusia - Today at 9:53 PM
I dunno, Lamoni. I remember getting a lot of news articles about goats... xD
Lamoni - Today at 9:53 PM
Zwangzug - Today at 9:54 PM
I don't have any firsthand experience but don't you have a singing contest? That sounds cool.
Koth - Today at 9:54 PM
Well I have a lot of good words to say about individual defenders. But defenders on a whole?
I guess I admire their dedication more than anything. They're constantly up at ass in the morning watching and waiting for us to make moves.
Cer - Today at 9:55 PM
Kyru, er, we Mentors were behind that.
I have high praises for individuals. Groups, not so much. Mostly that's due to being out of the game so long. I'm unfamiliar with the newer faces.
Koth - Today at 9:55 PM
That's pretty interesting when you really give it a thought. The way that group of people plays their game relies on spending hours just sitting and waiting for other people to do things.
It's like stocks, probably.
Swith - Today at 9:56 PM
Question 15 posed by Thoricia - "Why don't raiders compete against each other to add more zest to the game"
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:57 PM
I hate to sound cliche, but back when I raided, raiders did compete against one another
Koth - Today at 9:57 PM
Depending on your definition, we are constantly competing with one another.
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:57 PM
That's not to say it was a bonafide inevitability, because by and large folks did work togehter.
Cer - Today at 9:57 PM
IIRC, there was competitiveness within the community when TBR first formed.
Koth - Today at 9:57 PM
We are competing for recruits, competing for the spotlight, and competing for who has the most skilled players.
Cer - Today at 9:57 PM
^ that
Koth - Today at 9:58 PM
As far as why we don't raid against each other?
We're pretty divided on almost every other front. The battlefield is where we need to unite.
Swith - Today at 9:58 PM
Clarification "I believe there's a clarification to that last question that's needed: by "competing against", its meant to ask why they don't raid each other."
Koth caught it. TY Koth.
Koth - Today at 9:58 PM
Individually, we are weak like a single twig. But together, we form a mighty faggot!
Todd McCloud - Today at 9:59 PM
Ha. I remember that episode.
Koth - Today at 9:59 PM
:heart: The Simpsons(edited)
Cer - Today at 9:59 PM
Koth - Today at 9:59 PM
But yeah like
The defenders all have one common goal
to kick our ass
Swith - Today at 9:59 PM
Question 16 posed by Sylvia - "Can you ever recall a region that enjoyed being invaded?"
Koth - Today at 9:59 PM
if we don't work against them as one we're outnumbered
Koth - Today at 10:00 PM
HMMMMMM. THIS ISN'T TOTALLY FEEDING ME AN ANSWER OR ANYTHING!
Equestria.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:00 PM
That was the region I was thinking of.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:00 PM
Yes. The Skeleton Army used to raid for fun back in the day. Several regions actually liked when they showed up.
Koth - Today at 10:00 PM
Those pony dudes just loved the hell out of us.
Swith - Today at 10:00 PM
Moderator commentary: my own region has a gameplan for any raids that occur. Cer won't let us take down the defenses in order to implement it.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:01 PM
#BlameCer...?
Cer - Today at 10:01 PM
Guilty.
Zwangzug - Today at 10:02 PM
They've actually been commended for their "raiding style." Pretty neat.
Cer - Today at 10:02 PM
For some twisted regions, being raiding is like an artist having a Weird Al parody. They interpret it as "we're good enough to be noticed". shrugs
Swith - Today at 10:02 PM
Question 17 posed by Jutomi~ "Mind elaborating on what the Liberation Haven was and what happened with it?"
Koth - Today at 10:03 PM
grabs the Everclear
God where do we begin with this epic tale of TOTALLY NOT FLAMEBAITING by a mod
Alright so once upon a time there was a defender named Mallorea and Riva
Lamoni - Today at 10:04 PM
Noooooo... not flamebaiting by mod at alllllllll........
Koth - Today at 10:04 PM
He screwed over the defenders and became a raider
Swith - Today at 10:04 PM
Do try to keep it neutral. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
Koth - Today at 10:04 PM
As a raider he dedicated his entire career to making natives as mad as possible(edited)
Like it was his stated goal as a raider that he wanted to piss everyone off
Ghant - Today at 10:04 PM
Q17: I know that among RPers, it was a watershed moment. It opened up the question of whether or not passworded RP regions could be raided. That was how it was spun among Rpers anyway.(edited)
Kyrusia - Today at 10:04 PM
The Liberate Haven SC proposal, FTR: forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=303025&hilit=Liberate+Haven
Swith - Today at 10:04 PM
TY. I was looking for that, Kyru.
Koth - Today at 10:04 PM
Somehow this guy became a mod (he's a good friend of mine btw, this is just objective fact here)
Swith - Today at 10:05 PM
Again, Mall isn't here to defend his activities, so let's keep this brief so we can move on.
Koth - Today at 10:05 PM
he found the ultimate way to troll roleplayers: use the Security Council to open up a passworded region that went through every possible opt-out they were capable of
The shitstorm was inevitable and brutal
And truth be told I loved it
but it got old fast
Cer - Today at 10:06 PM
We all survived it, GP and RPer alike. That's something.
Koth - Today at 10:06 PM
And ultimately died at vote
Swith - Today at 10:06 PM
Question 18 posed by Sylvia - "How much roleplay would you say goes into gameplay?"
Koth - Today at 10:06 PM
People were so angry I STILL see signatures on NS saying that Mall should be removed from the mod team
Kyrusia - Today at 10:07 PM
During the time, I was the +Founder of an IRC channel; it was deliberately opened to members of the R/D community in order to try and foster a dialogue during the incident. Some dialogue was had; there was also lots of mutual shitposting.
This was before I was a Mentor or Mod, obv.
Koth - Today at 10:07 PM
Heh. I was actually talking to Kyru about this last night.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:07 PM
Indeed.
Swith - Today at 10:07 PM
Followup by Rhodevus "Are there any examples to RPing in the R/D game? As in a raider group RPing the raid with the RP region they are currently raiding?"
Zwangzug - Today at 10:07 PM
Q 18: for me, not very much.
Koth - Today at 10:08 PM
Gameplay is ostensibly an OOC subforum, and thus an OOC community. But if you ask me, everyone is playing a character here on some level. I've raided a region called "The NationStates Holocaust Memorial" or something to that effect before and not felt bad about it at all.
But you would never see me deface a memorial like that out in the real world.
Lamoni - Today at 10:08 PM
What RPing that i've seen on Gameplay is on their off-site forums. Some of them have extensive RPing on their off-site forums.
Koth - Today at 10:09 PM
People in GP are constantly at each other's throats over politics, but you take them out of the game and a lot of them get along just fine, "OOC".
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:09 PM
The only IC behavior I've seen in gameplay are the NS families.
Koth - Today at 10:09 PM
So on top of that level of roleplaying, you also see things like what Todd mentioned, the NS families
And regional world RPs
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:10 PM
The rest is OOC, which is why many in gameplay take things very personally.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:10 PM
Which I wish y'all would detail on site more, because I've tried to read about those and always hit a wall of, "Nada."
Speaking of "R/D families," I mean.
Swith - Today at 10:10 PM
Question 19 posed by Gren, "Is there any interest at all in an R/D & RP summit?"
I do know we've tried them in the past. Can our raiders and defenders offer input at to why they fail, and offer suggestions on how we might be successful with one?
Koth - Today at 10:10 PM
They aren't really supposed to be something permanently written down Kyru, families are CONSTANTLY changing.
Zwangzug - Today at 10:11 PM
I'm not sure I've ever been to one of the summits. I don't think that "events" that get hyped up pretty much for their own sake or on offsite forums are necessarily the way to go. Maybe something onsite might be better at drawing RPers in.
Ghant - Today at 10:11 PM
Q19: I know as an RPer, I'd be willing to participate in a summit, because I think dialogue and understanding between RNDers and RPers is important to resolving the disputes that the two groups have.
Koth - Today at 10:11 PM
I'm down for the idea. It's evident that the Mentors here are down for more exposure to the GP crowd, the bigger issue would be convincing gameplayers to show up.
Cer - Today at 10:11 PM
I think this panel has set a precedent in that both sides can communicate openly and without hostility. It takes putting aside past grievances in order to find common ground, and to gain insight into how both sides (RP and R/D) actually think and work.
Lamoni - Today at 10:12 PM
The closest thing to a summit that I see working is the NS World Fair, tbh.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:12 PM
I think the way this event has been organized it could lead to future interactions. As Lamoni indicated, we've had something to that effect utilized in an NS World Fair. It would be nice to do a deep dive on that.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:12 PM
(And some friendly back-and-forth. )
Zwangzug - Today at 10:13 PM
A pro tip on that one: don't assume that because someone's been down to help one year they'll necessarily want to help the next. Ask first!
The long-term cycle of it might make it off-putting to some faster-paced rpers, idk.
Lamoni - Today at 10:14 PM
The NS World Fair was how I personally started meeting gameplayers, and getting invites to their Discord servers and OSFs, by the way.
Swith - Today at 10:14 PM
Question from a panelist "Why are raiders so closed off when roleplayers approach them politely with concerns or questions?" As a roleplayer that has approached raider leadership before to ask questions (thus easing tensions between RP and R/D), I've myself experienced a cold shoulder.
Would this "cold" attitude limit the potential for a R/D & RP summit?
Koth - Today at 10:16 PM
I honestly don't know, I can only speak for others so much. If I had to guess, it factors into the idea that many raiders don't particularly care about the "natives", and tend to ignore contact through telegram.
I personally am always open for conversation, telegram "Reventus Koth" any time.
Cer - Today at 10:17 PM
Swith, if this was the incident from several years back, I honestly think you caught people by surprise. You weren't a native. It was during a rough period between R/D & RP. TBR wasn't the best place to ask about ways to alleviate the rift, at that time. People like Koth are open to answering questions.
Swith - Today at 10:18 PM
Question 20 posed by Deramen - "As someone who knows nearly zilch on this topic, could someone explain families and how they relate to raiding?"
Zwangzug - Today at 10:18 PM
So they don't relate to raiding, as far as I am aware.
Lamoni - Today at 10:18 PM
Families are an IC thing.
Koth - Today at 10:19 PM
Heh, don't think too hard about families. It's the most cliquish thing that the already-cliquey Gameplay community has come up with. All it boils down to is players "adopting" one another
Swith - Today at 10:19 PM
TY Cer. I appreciate the clarification.
Lamoni - Today at 10:19 PM
Precisely what KOTH said.
Koth - Today at 10:19 PM
So for instance, I have 4 children, who are all other players. We form "House Vytherov"
So my daughter's name would be "Valkyrie Vytherov"
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:20 PM
I had a kid once. He decided having a fox-guy dad who spent his days rolling around in toxic waste wasn't very productive
Koth - Today at 10:20 PM
This gets pretty complicated when families get too big
and marry into one another...
Kyrusia - Today at 10:20 PM
Habsburgs when?
Lamoni - Today at 10:20 PM
There are also Marriages.
Koth - Today at 10:20 PM
TAKE THAT, VON HABSBURGS!
Zwangzug - Today at 10:20 PM
There used to be a thing of RPing marriages and having "weddings" on IRC. Did that get tabooed for being weirdly sexist or did it just fade out?
Koth - Today at 10:20 PM
It still happens
Swith - Today at 10:20 PM
Question 21 posed by Jutomi~ - "What are some of your favorite raids or defends?"
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:20 PM
It still occurs.
Koth - Today at 10:20 PM
But not as many marriages happen
Lamoni - Today at 10:21 PM
I've tried to either get into a family or NS marry someone before, but it never got anywhere.
Swith - Today at 10:21 PM
Ten Minutes Remain
Koth - Today at 10:21 PM
Oh god, this one's easy
Zwangzug - Today at 10:21 PM
Q21: I don't remember. It all kind of blurs together.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:21 PM
Hmm... Feudal Japan comes to mind, back in the day.
Koth - Today at 10:21 PM
Eastern Islands of Dharma, founded by Unibot. When Unibot II got deleted for even more rule breaking, we instantly took advantage and just absolutely destroyed that region.
I also had a lot of fun during the raid of Texas, where we put another long time native into the delegacy, breaking NewTexas's streak that was over a decade long. I was actually DMing a 3.5 game when that went down, and my players were very confused...
Swith - Today at 10:23 PM
Final question posed by many via PM - "Would our panelists return for future panels? Or to perhaps talk about how to set up regions to make them strong?"
Koth - Today at 10:23 PM
Fuck yeah.
Ghant - Today at 10:24 PM
Of course.
Cer - Today at 10:24 PM
Sure.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:24 PM
No. Go away.
Swith - Today at 10:24 PM
Kyrusia - Today at 10:24 PM
(I kid. Probably.)
Lamoni - Today at 10:24 PM
I'd love to.
Todd McCloud - Today at 10:24 PM
I would be interested if folks would have me.
Zwangzug - Today at 10:24 PM
Maybe, but I'm afraid I don't have a lot of good advice.
Koth - Today at 10:25 PM
I can point you guys to some valuable resources on securing regions if you'd like.
I'd just have to remember where they are.
Lamoni - Today at 10:25 PM
There is an excellent guide on my "Observations on RPing" lecture on the NSRPS,
And i'm open to answering questions, if asked.
Swith - Today at 10:26 PM
Alright, we're running out of time. On behalf of the NSRP Symposium staff and participants, I'd like to thank our raider and defender guests. Thank you also, Lamoni, for bringing up this wonderful topic and for your mini-lecture. To our guests in the questions_chamber, thank you for keeping things calm and civil. I couldn't have done this without all of you.
And yes, please badger Koth and the others for tips. There are plenty of guides out there as well.
Lamoni - Today at 10:26 PM
You're welcome, Swith.
Swith - Today at 10:26 PM
Lamoni's guide is linked at the start of the question chamber intro.
Kyrusia - Today at 10:26 PM
Thanks for modding the panel, Swith. And also, thank you to our raiders and defenders. And thank you to our audience for your interest and participation.
Lamoni - Today at 10:26 PM
I would love it if you all read it.
Koth - Today at 10:27 PM
Later nerds, I'll stick around and chat for a while
Swith - Today at 10:27 PM
nsrps.boards.net/thread/21/roleplayers-observations-on-ns-gameplay
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: “Observations on Gameplay”
TIME: COMPLETED