Swith's Informal Morning Panel and Coffee Klatsch
Sponsored by the NationStates Mentor Program
and
Overgoat Coffee Brands™ - Bleating away your sleep one bean at a time.
**NS Roleplay Symposium 2017**
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Conflict Resolution and Out-of-Character Drama” (Broad Panel, Early Hour)
TIME: 12 PM EST, Tuesday, July 11th
Good morning. Welcome to Swith's Informal Morning Panel and Coffee Klatsch (Sponsored by the NationStates Mentor Program and Overgoat Coffee Brands™ - ’Bleating away your sleep one bean at a time!’) I’m Swith, your panel moderator/talk show host. As this is an early morning session, we may not have panelists. As we did yesterday, we’ll make this informal.
This morning’s topic, “Conflict Resolution and Out-of-Character Drama”, is fairly straight-forward.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us which subforum you haunt.
BEGIN
::(edited)
Gren - Today at 12:01 PM
I'm Gren, as always, and I'm from P2TM.
FRFS - Today at 12:01 PM
Goodmorning, I'm FRFS. I'm a FT player, and I'm from II.
Giovenith - Today at 12:01 PM
Good morning everyone, I'm Gio from P2TM, and I like to shake my fist at the sun each morning.
Dutch - Today at 12:02 PM
Hey-o, 't is I, Dutch from P2TM again. Again, I might disappear for dinner. It's kind of my thing these days.
Swith - Today at 12:02 PM
Good morning panelists.
One of the things we didn't cover in yesterday's evening panel is taking and giving criticism. Let's lead off with that, if you don't mind. How do you approach it, as a player or as an OP. And how do you handle it when you're on the receiving end?
Dutch - Today at 12:04 PM
On the receiving end, I tend to use said criticism to improve whatever was criticised to my best ability.
When dishing out criticism, I usually start out with the "good" before bringing up the "bad" to make sure that whoever's on the receiving end doesn't feel like it's all bad.
Gren - Today at 12:04 PM
I fully admit I'm not the best RPer. So long as the criticism is given maturely, I take it as a growth opportunity.
And when I give criticism, I make sure to give it maturely.
Dutch - Today at 12:05 PM
I think that's a very important thing to do when giving criticism.
Swith - Today at 12:06 PM
I can handle criticism though I don't like hearing it from a third party. I'd rather a person be honest with me and approach me. I'm as mellow as they get.
For criticism... I prefer to call it critique. The method I use is somewhat patterned off what I picked up from years of being a USAF brat: the sandwich. Praise followed by observation or critique, followed by praise. I don't want to crush anyone's hopes, nor come on so strong that they're left reeling.
Giovenith - Today at 12:06 PM
That's a difficult question for life in general. On a visceral level, I'm not the best at receiving criticism, but I try to be. I brace myself and continuously remind myself that this is not a personal attack and that I should give serious thought to what's being told of me. I am allowed to disagree with what they're saying, but I have to have a good reason that addresses their concerns.
When giving criticism, I try to go in as gently but honestly as possible. I've had a bit of training in social graces from my school, so I know how to word things in a way that deescalates potential conflict.
FRFS - Today at 12:08 PM
There's a good rule that I learned a long time ago. Everytime I bring you down, I have to lift you up twice. In giving criticism it can't be a constant dragging on an idea. You have to give as much of a positive effect with it as well. Giving improvements, is a great way to do that. Trying to offer a hand to improve an idea, rather than just beating it down.
Swith - Today at 12:09 PM
Sometimes approaching a person to offer feedback (or deal with a situation) is difficult, especially for our younger roleplayers that aren't sure how to do it without coming across as jerks (or, due to their age, losing cred or popularity).
How do each of you handle things in that situation?
FRFS - Today at 12:09 PM
If you're going to give a negative effort, you have to follow it with a positive effect.
Swith - Today at 12:11 PM
That's very true. People tend to want to shut down or bristle when confronted, especially if your feedback regards their writing or creativity.
Gren - Today at 12:11 PM
As always, it needs to be done very diplomatically.
FRFS - Today at 12:11 PM
A lot of times when you're giving advice, it's easy to forget people have been working on their ideas for 'x' length of time.
At the same time. When you bring that idea to a public setting. You're inviting other's in.
Giovenith - Today at 12:12 PM
Make sure you address it as a concern, a way of helping them so they don't get in any trouble. Be nice, but explain what could go wrong if they continue the way they do. Make less about picking apart who they are right now and more about helping them achieving a more desirable state.
Swith - Today at 12:13 PM
I'm not a fan of public approach. I don't want to embarrass someone or make them feel put down in front of an entire group. I'll approach them via TG or, if they're on Discord and we're on friendly terms, I'll bring the matter up there and in PM. I do what Gio does as well. My aim isn't to thrash their ego. It's to help them grow as a player or as a person.
Gren - Today at 12:14 PM
Honestly, I feel, its not just something you do when you have to give criticism. You kind of need to practice a diplomatic mindset often, especially when receiving criticism.
Swith - Today at 12:14 PM
Here's one that a lot of OP will deal with at one time or another: When a CoOP or prominent RP group member is acting unruly or disruptive, how best should the OP or group handle them?
FRFS - Today at 12:16 PM
Respectfully first of all, and if there is a group an intervention is always a good format.
Especially if it's a consensus
Gren - Today at 12:17 PM
Unruly or disruptive in what way? The response needs to be tailored to how they're acting.
FRFS - Today at 12:17 PM
That's true.
There is a scale
Gren - Today at 12:17 PM
If its throwing a temper tantrum in the OOC, then definitely call in the mods.
FRFS - Today at 12:17 PM
^
Swith - Today at 12:17 PM
There are times I use Moderation and the OSRS as the 'bad guy'. Not "Mods as weapons"! For example, a person is spamming my OOC with memes. I'll post, "Hey, enough of the memes. You know they'll bust us for spam. Let's get back to [whatever makes it on topic again]." I use the "we" instead of "you" approach because, really, the behavior reflects on us all, and has the potential to end our fun.
Gren - Today at 12:18 PM
If its a subtle thing, then (again, diplomatically), explain the problem.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:18 PM
runs in late
Giovenith - Today at 12:18 PM
They deserve the same honesty and respect as anyone else, but probably less softer considering that either of those people should know better.
Gren - Today at 12:18 PM
That's a good way to go, Swith.
I've used that approach a few times in the Trans Thread.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:18 PM
Second-string panelist Reploid here- past FT experience, 20+ years various RPing experience, and longtime NS moderator. :wink:
Gren - Today at 12:19 PM
Hey Reppy!
Swith - Today at 12:20 PM
Good morning, Reppy!
I'd like to add that, once upon a time in P2TM, OP could call on a Mentor to help tone down heat. The Mentor would post, often sternly, "Look at your rules here. OP is in charge. No arguments, please do what they say". We don't do that anymore (it can be seen by outsiders as Mod impersonation), but that technique does work for the OP themselves. Be firm if you must.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:20 PM
As for criticism, seconding what the others have said- opening with the bad and ending with something positive can really help take the sting out of a critique. It also really depends on the group involved; some groups can better take it than others, and that group dynamic is something to keep in mind.
FRFS - Today at 12:21 PM
Like I said, a consensus makes things easier in a group setting. It ensures A: you're not the only one seeing them being disruptive. and B: they see it as well.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:21 PM
Similarly, some groups function much better with the OP (or DM) taking firm command of the thread. Some groups can function fine with a more open approach; but that really hinges on having good OOC communication between players.
Swith - Today at 12:22 PM
That's a good point, Reppy. As we stressed the last time we did this panel, communication is key.
Rhodevus has an excellent question for us. "I find that the most difficult problem while OPing is when another player thread-jacks your RP, but leads it in a direction that you like more than your original idea. What would be a good way of talking to them so you can regain control of your RP, while still following the path that they seem to have set?"
FRFS - Today at 12:22 PM
Someone took a little detour, that you don't mind?
Gren - Today at 12:22 PM
Offer to make them Co-OP?
That's honestly what I would do in that situation.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:23 PM
That's a great opportunity to collaborate, actually. If they have a good idea, get talking with them, see if you can both develop the idea further.
We had some of that going on last night actually, when Koth was seeking some advice for his DnD campaign. Collaboration and just picking folks' brains can make for better storytelling.
Swith - Today at 12:24 PM
I wouldn't make them a CoOP but I do give the nod for them to take lead on a story element. It needs to be a collaborated thing. As OP, you're responsible for the overall game. They should run things by you to keep you in the loop.
FRFS - Today at 12:24 PM
If you didn't mind where the story went, but you want to ensure it ends up where you wanted it too. Co-OPing them wouldn't be bad.
It's either than or an "I'm the captain now" situation.
Where you explain to them that while you've enjoyed the little detour, as OP, you'd like to get back on course.
Gren - Today at 12:26 PM
At least, with the Co-OP approach, you can both better coordinate.
Giovenith - Today at 12:26 PM
I think just admitting that you like this idea better is enough.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:26 PM
Plus making use of player ideas like that helps make your players feel more included, and like their involvement matters.
FRFS - Today at 12:26 PM
Which is within your right as OP.
Swith - Today at 12:26 PM
Eridani Imperium brought up something that occurs a bit too often for many of us. "Let's say you approve a player's character, but they're being oddly clingy to your character. How do you settle this OOCly?"
FRFS - Today at 12:26 PM
But as gren just said.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:27 PM
Oh, yeowch. Again, communication is key. Getting ahold of the other player OOC and gently explaining that you're not looking to ship your character and generally making your intentions clear is generally going to be your best starting point.
Gren - Today at 12:28 PM
I'd say find a way to do it ICly, like your character explaining they're not attracted to the other person's character.
Any awkwardness can then be brushed away in the OOC as being an IC matter.
If that makes sense.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:29 PM
That's another option. It's important to keep in mind though that many RPers are going to be heavily invested in their precious characters, and they can take an IC (or an OOC) rebuff of their character as a slight against them as a player. It's important to keep the distinction between characters and players clear.
Giovenith - Today at 12:29 PM
I think this can be settled ICly. Try to find a character they'd be compatible with and introduce them to each other before lightly prying off the fingers as they were. Usually new players are clingy to the OP for the same reason a child is clingy to their parent, they're shy and you're the only person they really know so far. A little nudge toward a new friend and then having your character leave them may be necessary.
OOCly, you could simply suggest, "Hey, I think you and this guy would get along great. Why don't you go interact with them?"(edited)
Swith - Today at 12:29 PM
A question via PM, "A player is posting something, like gorn or sexytimes, that doesn't really cross the PG 13 line. Most people are okay with it, but some players are uncomfortable and tell you so. As OP, how would you handle that situation?" This is for both IC and OOC posts.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:30 PM
Knee-jerk, May Massacre reaction: KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Gren - Today at 12:30 PM
In that case, just make an announcement in the OOC, stating you're banning that because some other players weren't ok with it.
Swith - Today at 12:30 PM
Gren - Today at 12:30 PM
You don't have to name names.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:30 PM
More seriously, it's on the OP to set the tone of the thread. If it's not something you're okay with, make that clear.
Swith - Today at 12:31 PM
I tend to error on the side of the squeamish player. If they're not comfy, others might not be. I ask people to clean it up. Some topics are taboo in my RP, such as rape.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:31 PM
You can state it diplomatically, "This sort of material makes some players uncomfortable and really doesn't contribute to the storytelling, please refrain from it."
Giovenith - Today at 12:31 PM
You have to publicly state that everyone needs to cool down otherwise the RP is going to get shut down - because that is the case.
FRFS - Today at 12:31 PM
Yeah always follow the site rules. Please.
Just do it.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:32 PM
And if it continues, then you may have to take a harsher tone toward it, perhaps even threaten the most egregious offenders with being booted from the RP
(And if it escalates to crossing the PG-13 line, well, you know who to call then.)
Swith - Today at 12:32 PM
Essexia asks, "What's a good way to deal with RPers who aren't at the extremes of being disruptive, but still act in ways that are detrimental to the the community? For instance, I have noticed in my region that some people act oddly (to me) "nativist." By which I mean actions ranging from being rather dismissive and unwelcoming to new people, to expecting regional leadership to take their side in disputes simply because they joined the region several months before another person did."
Giovenith - Today at 12:32 PM
GHOSTBUSTERS!
Swith - Today at 12:32 PM
:stuck_out_tongue: Gio
I'm not familiar with region politics as most of my regions are player-supportive groups. However, as a Founder or Officer, I try to set the tone. I'm open, welcoming, and supportive. I ask my region mates to follow in suit.
Gren - Today at 12:34 PM
As do I.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:35 PM
It kinda comes down to what the community will bear. In regions, the founder, much like a thread OP may have to stop taking the softly-softly approach and just remove the disruptive element if a more diplomatic solution fails.
Giovenith - Today at 12:35 PM
As the leader, you need to set an example. Be welcoming toward new people and take them seriously yourself, others will get the message. Also, don't be afraid to be blunt in response to others being "tip-toey" - a lot of people think if they just skirt the line and aren't directly rude then no one will call them out of their shit. Prove them wrong. Don't be a hair-trigger, but draw the line in the sand and soundly shove them back from it.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:36 PM
It can also be an indicator that maybe that isn't the group/region for you and your style, if you're a player and not the founder/OP.
FRFS - Today at 12:36 PM
It's a soft Iron Fist.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:37 PM
A big part of NS roleplay is the fact that no one has to play with anyone they don't want to. And you see that happen with certain notorious RPers who end up ostracized. They act like jerks, people stop wanting to play with them.
Swith - Today at 12:38 PM
This comes from PM, "With summer in full swing, we've seen a lot of extreme opinions. How do you handle the alt-left/right attitudes in your OOC? In other words, how do you deal with edgelords and trolls if they aren't crossing the line? And how do you handle the attitudes if you boot the person and they run around the subforums badmouthing you or doing trifling things to upset your players, like insulting their characters or writing style?"
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:39 PM
Always take the high road. It's easier to shoot downhill. If someone is engaging in a campaign of harassment like that, that's a moderation matter. We might not be able to start smacking on the first instance, but it does start building up a paper trail and establish the pattern of behavior.
Gren - Today at 12:39 PM
I can't say I've had much experience with this as an OP in the RP forums, but I have dealt with it as OP of the Trans Thread on NSG. And I put a blanket ban on politics that don't directly relate to the thread. (Yes, I realize there's no official thread ownership in NSG, but I exercise soft power.)(edited)
FRFS - Today at 12:39 PM
Yes, never engage in mud slinging. All sides get hurt in that.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:40 PM
Some people can keep their OOC politics out of their IC behavior, at which point you can probably still engage in an enjoyable RP. The ones that can't, you may just have to tell them that sorry, they're just not a good fit for the thread.
Gren - Today at 12:40 PM
^ Probably the best route.
Swith - Today at 12:41 PM
Ignore and foe lists are your best friends, IMHO. I encourage my players to not rise to bait. It's the "wall of silence" treatment. If it gets bad, and I think it may cross the line into OSRS violation territory, I'll send off a GHR so Mods can gauge. After all, I might be biased in that situation. An outside party might see things more clearly. Though, honestly, I try to avoid pestering Mods.
Giovenith - Today at 12:42 PM
This is related to my previous answer - don't let them think skirting the line and not crossing it will leave them out of trouble. If you're a good parent, you don't let your kid get away with the, "I'm not touching yoooooou!" game, you pull over, look them in the eye, and tell them to stop being an asshole.
If you have to boot them and they're being asses about it, the best thing is to ignore them. If it really gets over the top though, like to the point of libel or CONSTANT shit-talking, you may have to ask for Mod help.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:42 PM
Fortunately, most of our sour summer children tend not to be as big into bothering the RP community as they are into pestering NSG. And a lot of them tend not to last very long before they earn the Wrath of Mod
FRFS - Today at 12:42 PM
Once they are out of the community, the community should no longer focus on what they have to say. The Wall of Silence eventually works, and the higher it get's built the smaller that singular voice gets.
Swith - Today at 12:43 PM
Eridani Imperium asks, "If you approved a player, and for whatever reason, you decided to ship your character with theirs, and the other player starts acting really creepy. At what point are you justifiable in revoking their application and kicking them out? If there's other solutions, I'd like to hear, and how do you stop this from happening in the future? How do you reconcile this entire mess?"
Gren - Today at 12:45 PM
That is a tough one.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:46 PM
That's one I would take in stages. First stage being to ICly sink the ship. Second stage if that fails would be to pull the player aside OOCly and make it clear that their behavior is creeping you out and to please stop. If that fails, it may be time to threaten to remove them from the RP due to their OOC conduct. There's very few diplomatic ways to say, "Stop being a creeper toward me/my character."
Swith - Today at 12:47 PM
We touched on this in another panel. The best advice going in to any IC relationship is "be clear and set boundaries". Address your concerns with them before it gets out of hand. As OP, you can boot any player for any reason in your game. You don't have to put up with the behavior if it continues.
Sometimes the "creepy" is a misunderstanding, also. Communicate. Is that player misunderstanding IC signals and thinking you're looking for OOC fun? If it's creepy IC behavior, and my character doesn't like it, I allow that character to be vocal about it. Conflict breeds character, and canceling a 'ship' before it gets to sea is perfectly in line with storytelling games.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:48 PM
^-- Also, this. To quote one of Scolopendra's classic lines, COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY TO AIR POWER!
Giovenith - Today at 12:48 PM
Be honest about how you feel and draw lines in the sand. Booting should come if they continuously ignore those lines.
Gren - Today at 12:49 PM
And as WWII showed us, nothing kills ships like air power.
Swith - Today at 12:49 PM
A PM question, "How do you handle bad criticism? Bad criticism might be someone rebuking you in public instead of doing it in private, or it can be a nasty comment about your playstyle. It might be third party disclosure, such as a chat log attacking you."
FRFS - Today at 12:49 PM
You have to always remember, they aren't/shouldn't be attacking you personally.
It's your idea.
And you've brought it to a public place.
You have to develop a bit of thick skin.
%5 on Rotton Tomatos sucks.
But it happens.
It's the same thing here.
Gren - Today at 12:50 PM
Thick skin is important. I'd also give criticism of their criticism (yet again, diplomatically).
Example:
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:51 PM
First step: Consider the source. Is the criticism coming from someone who's opinion you actually care about? Then, consider what's actually being said, and evaluate it. If there's no substance to it (ie: So-and-so's RPing sucks,) that's a time for a thick skin and to just discard it for the empty fluff it is.
Gren - Today at 12:51 PM
Player A to B: Your character is shit and you are no different.
Player B to A: Look, I get you don't like how I wrote him, but there's no need to flame me over it.
FRFS - Today at 12:51 PM
^
Giving criticism correctly is just as important.(edited)
Giovenith - Today at 12:52 PM
DO NOT freak out. That's the most important thing. Don't look like the asshole. Don't prove them right. No matter how justified you think your anger is, getting angry is just going to make whatever they said look more true in the eyes of everyone else.
FRFS - Today at 12:53 PM
Being told there are problems or issues with your idea, is not the same as saying there are problems with you.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:53 PM
Alternatively, start pressing them for details in the most ernest, "How can I fix the problems?" manner. If someone is serious about useful criticism, they'll be able to provide specifics and possible solutions. If they're just trying to shitstir, they'll start to fumble and their intention will be clear to anyone watching.
Swith - Today at 12:53 PM
A Question via PM, "Let's say you have a really bad OP but you like their game setting and concept. How do you approach the OP to address their inexperience or attitude?"
FRFS - Today at 12:54 PM
Most criticism is going to be leveled at your writing. Your concepts, your ideas. @reploid Productions brings up a great point. If they are offering solutions or ideas or help, then their criticism is coming from the right place. Being critical should come with help as well.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:56 PM
A lot of that is going to depend on how the OP is OOCly. Some OPs are very receptive to help and sugegstions, and others will take any critique or suggestion no matter how gently phrased as a personal assault against their Glorious Vision.(edited)
FRFS - Today at 12:57 PM
Aye sometimes that's not going to work out no matter how you go about it.
Sometimes people don't change.
Giovenith - Today at 12:58 PM
This is a tricky situation. I would start by making it seem like it's not really me who has these concerns, it's "people" who do, or will. Spreading out your identity to a "we" instead of an "I" even if it's just you talking is known to soften people and protect the speaker from seeming confrontational. It's not a lie either, this is ultimately about what others are going to think of their attitude. Explain how, more or less, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Be prepared to be shot down, as not everyone wants advice.
FRFS - Today at 12:58 PM
And you quite honestly have to let it go if someone isn't receptive to what you're offering.
Reploid Productions - Today at 12:59 PM
Probably best to start via a private communication, get ahold of them and express that you're (or other people are) really interested and intrigued by their idea, but that there are a few concerns about the execution. Calling them out in public no matter how diplomatic is more likely to put them straight on the defensive from the outset.
Swith - Today at 12:59 PM
Final question: "How do you inspire people to do better in your roleplay or group?" someone asks in PM. This pertains to motivating players to up their game, put more efforts into their posts/writing, work on character development instead of shallow relationships/sex/flirting, improving their attitude, or embracing roleplay etiquette (and so on!)
FRFS - Today at 1:00 PM
Lead by example really. You have to put forth the effort within the RP itself. Let your writing take it up a level, and other's will try and match you.
Offer to help collaborate other's posts. Show them how to put detail and effort into what they are doing.
Giovenith - Today at 1:01 PM
Show them what sorts of epic things can be accomplished with your own writing. People like reading good stories and like imitating good stories.
Reploid Productions - Today at 1:01 PM
Also, encouragement, encouragement, encouragement. Lead by example, and reward the positive parts of their work. People like being complimented/rewarded, and will start to do more of the behaviors that get them those benefits.
FRFS - Today at 1:02 PM
Writing can become competitive from an actual writing standpoint, and in a lot of cases that is a good thing.
If someone posts before me and it is epic. You kinda have to reply in turn.
Reploid Productions - Today at 1:05 PM
RPing, like any form of writing is a constant evolution of skill; it may be slow going depending on where their skill level is at from the start but you can lead someone toward challenging themselves and pushing out of their comfort zone. That's one reason people do things like writing prompt challenges- it's a way to get out of that safe space and push their abilities. Make it clear to your players that you're trying to challenge your own abilities, and encourage them to do likewise.
Swith - Today at 1:05 PM
I think that wraps it up nicely.
Thank you all for volunteering as panelists this morning, and thanks to our guests for providing good questions. I look forward to seeing you in upcoming panels.
Our evening schedule:
Tuesday, July 11th, 2017
OP Management and GMing Roleplays (Broad Panel, Late Hour) — 7PM EST
War and Storytelling — 9PM EST
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: "Conflict Resolution and Out-of-Character Drama” (Broad Panel, Early Hour)
TIME: COMPLETED