[8:00 PM] Kyrusia:
**NS Roleplay Symposium 2017**
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Diversity in the Roleplaying Community"
TIME: 9-10 PM Eastern, Sunday, July 9th
Good evening and welcome to our fifth panel of the Symposium. I'm Kyrusia, your discussion moderator for this session.
We'll look at diversity in the roleplaying communtity, to include different perspectives both as they impact the community in an Out-of-Character fashion and In-Character. Please keep this topic constrained as to the roleplaying community; political name-calling, derogatory remarks (to include those targeting others based upon their race, creed, gender, etc.), and other disruptive behavior will not be tolerated and may result in your immediate muting at the discretion of the panel moderator.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us which subforums you haunt.
I also thank guests for their patience. We will pull your questions from the #questions_chamber. To make it easier on us, please keep chatter to the main #ns_mentors channel. Thank you.
BEGIN
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[8:01 PM] Tilt: Hello, am Tilt. I'm a lurker in P2TM and a member of the Madhouse RP group there.
[8:01 PM] Giovenith: Hello, I'm Gio, I'm from P2TM.
[8:02 PM] Gren: I'm Gren, P2TM resident, and fellow Madhouse member.
[8:02 PM] Zwangzug: Hello, I'm Zwangzug, mainly of NS Sports (and sometimes the issues subforum).
[8:02 PM] Cer: I'm Cer, a P2TM Denizen, and a Madhouse founder.
[8:03 PM] Kyrusia: Welcome, panelists.
[8:03 PM] Kyrusia: Question #1: How would you define diversity in the RP community? (Asked by @sailor)
[8:05 PM] Gren: I find it entails a lot of things. Not just ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. of the roleplayers themselves, but also in individual style, type of RP, and setting. And ultimately, how both of those sets of factors relate to each other.(edited)
[8:05 PM] Giovenith: Q1: Diversity probably can't be measured on a website the same way it can in real life because membership is purely voluntary, therefore the varying percentages of different kinds of people on NS is largely out of our control. Ergo, "diversity" on NS is probably best described as the willingness to recognize the differences between players that are here, respect them, and be willing to take them into account while gaming.
[8:06 PM] Tilt: Q1. Diversity in RP genre, setting, and characters.
[8:06 PM] Cer: Q1 A diverse RP community is one that pulls in people from varied backgrounds, nationalities, and political beliefs. It draws in people of color, cis and transgender persons, and so on. We're not united by what we are or what we believe, but in our passion for gaming/roleplaying. It's a great responsibility - one that hinges upon respect for the person as an individual.
[8:06 PM] Zwangzug: There are several kinds of diversity on display in the RP community. Diversity of writing styles shows up in that some people prefer dry news reports, some prefer character introspection, some prefer political intrigue. The game provides a crude first-order approximation of "nation categories," and to the extent that you run with those, there are a variety of cultures on display that are (partly subconsciously) drawn from your RL cultural influences. I personally don't think a lot about "diversity" as an identity-politics label among other RPers in contrast to other sites or locations
[8:07 PM] Kyrusia: Question #2: How do you feel about the state of diversity within the roleplaying community in general, both with regard to the player base and to narrative/roleplaying? What would you like to see change or be done differently? (Elaboration; related to Eridani Imperium's request.)
[8:08 PM] Cer: Q2 We have a good mix already, though we could use more RP depicting it. That change will come, in time and though player effort.
[8:09 PM] Zwangzug: With regard to the player base: obviously, don't jump to conclusions about people behind the screen before you talk to them. If someone happens to be a minority (at least among NSers) along some axis, don't assume that they'll be happy to provide moral support or empathy for everyone else in the same boat.
[8:09 PM] Cer: Good point, Zwang.
[8:09 PM] Zwangzug: With regard to narrative/roleplaying: don't elevate a certain style of writing on a pedestal and act like it's the only way to be a talented writer, whether implicitly or explicitly.
[8:10 PM] Tilt: Q2. I think the player community in P2TM is fairly diverse. I would like to see more original RP not necessarily based on an existing work, or at least not heavily so. Ditto for characters though that's more of an individual initiative to expand beyond one's comfort zone.
[8:10 PM] Giovenith: Q2: This is a complicated issue because again, we're dealing with the online world here. There's a certain disconnect when everyone is wearing a digital mask, even when we intellectually know what that person is like in real life, especially when we're taking on certain roles in roleplay. In a weird way, harmony in diversity is achieved because our differences aren't as prominently displayed as they would in real life.
That doesn't necessarily mean there are no issues. For example, players creating caricatures or stereotypes of a certain group of people that another player falls into is always a looming concern.(edited)
[8:10 PM] Kyrusia: Question #3: How do you think roleplayers should approach the issue of character diversity when they do not resemble their characters? To give an example, what if I wanted to write a character for an RP whose point-of-origin is a foreign real-life country? What sort of considerations should I keep in mind to ensure my portrayal is accurate, interesting, and not offensive to people from said country? This of course goes beyond nationality and can include things like sexuality, race, gender, and etc. (By Agy)
Related: [How] would you advise someone in RPing a character/nation of a different race/ethnicity/gender/religion as them? (By Rhodevus)
[8:11 PM] Gren: Q2: In terms of writing and style, I think we have excellent diversity in the community. In terms of diversity of the roleplayers, I feel there is a decent amount, but it seems like there's a bit of a reluctance to embrace that, at least that I see. I'd like to see people abandon the "ew, idpol" (which seems vaguely-defined) attitudes.
[8:12 PM] Gren: Q3: Research, research, research.
[8:12 PM] Gren: That's honestly the only way I can think of to do it right.
[8:13 PM] Gren: And not just wikipedia (though that can be extremely helpful). Seek out people of that background, to get a part of their perspective.
[8:13 PM] Cer: Q3 PLEASE RESEARCH. Cultural misappropriation happens, yes, but there have been instances where cultures are taken completely out of context and portrayed in ways that are not only insulting, but outright bigoted.
Listen, also. Players might politely approach you via TG to point out a mistake. Take it with a grain of salt, and try to be a bit sympathetic towards their own stance.
[8:13 PM] Zwangzug: In contexts where it's feasible, I would suggest having more than one character at a time of a given gender/ethnicity/etc. If you have (say) two women interacting with each other among a mixed-gender cast, it won't just be "oh the one woman is acting like this because she's a woman;" there's room for "some women are like this, others are like that, and they're just as diverse as men."
[8:13 PM] Tilt: Q3. I'm a huge fan of research. Honestly, the best way is likely to ask someone who's from that cultural element you want to RP.
[8:13 PM] Giovenith: Q3: That's always tricky. You don't want to make the character so wildly different that you make them seem inhuman and thus insulting, but you also don't want to assume that everybody in the world thinks and acts exactly like you. Some good advice I think would be to look to people of those groups that you personally know. Also, as others pointed out, research is key.
[8:14 PM] Zwangzug: Similarly, recognize that not all "minority identity" elements are going to be salient at any given moment. Sometimes a religious person is going to be thinking about their religion; other times they're going to be thinking about the ballgame/election/dance/whatever else is going on.
[8:15 PM] Kyrusia: Question #4: More to nation-based RP, do you think we're oversaturated with one particular government type in those RPs over others? Like way too many empires over republics or democracies? And if so, is there a problem with that? (Playstyle; asked by Ched.)
[8:16 PM] Gren: Q4: From what I've seen, there's a pretty decent mix, so I'd say there's no oversaturation.(edited)
[8:16 PM] moka: Q3: As everyone else has said, RESEARCH, RESEARCH RESEARCH, especially if it is a real life nation. but I agree it is best to ask someone who is familiar with that culture. Wikipedia and the internet will only go so far.. and if you are not familiar with the study of cultural differences, it is easy to come off as sterotyping or, best case, awkward
[8:16 PM] moka: also, Hi, I am @moka , figured I would join in and offer my opinions/advice during the Diversity panel
[8:17 PM] Kyrusia: Welcome. :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:17 PM] Giovenith: Q4: I wouldn't say we're necessarily saturated with a strict government type as we are saturated with a bunch of government types that all suspiciously seem to operate in much the same way: namely, that the leadership is so smart, self-assured, and "obviously" right that no one ever seems to question their judgment, as opposed to real life where we crucify our leadership for wearing the wrong colored tie. If it's a democracy, the people always vote in favor of what the leader already believed. If it's a dictatorship, the people are proud to obey the leader's every command and see no drawbacks that they're not willing to put up with.
Basically, President Mary Sue.(edited)
[8:18 PM] Cer: Q4 If I'd change anything, it would be to bump the leaderships' ages. So many are 16-20.(edited)
[8:19 PM] Giovenith: ^Mostly because the players themselves are around 16 - 20 and can't imagine an older mindset.
[8:19 PM] Cer: nod
[8:19 PM] Tilt: Q4. I'm not really aware of any prevailing trend in governments in RP beyond marriage events.
[8:19 PM] moka: Question 4: So many democracies... so little elections. Not to say that is bad per se, we are after all RPing what we want. And I do see a lot of good empires and other government types. It is just that the democratic process is often times a lot more...chaotic than I see it playing out in RP. Democracy is hard to RP
[8:19 PM] Tilt: So I abstain.
[8:19 PM] Kyrusia: Question #5: What would you suggest is the best way to portray racism, bigotry or political oppression in one's nation without coming off as someone merely trying to be offensive? (Asked by Thoricia.)
[8:19 PM] Giovenith: (sighs and cracks fingers)
[8:21 PM] Tilt: Q5. Fantastic racism/whatever bigotry is a trope. I think learning to play with it (in the trope connotation, not the RP one) takes a deft touch, and that's something only attainable by practice; except practicing in itself is risky.(edited)
[8:21 PM] Gren: Q5: Nuance. I don't think its bad to cover it from one side or the other, as long as its representation isn't like a cardboard cutout or like when Wile E Coyote painted the obviously-fake tunnel in the side of the rock.
[8:21 PM] moka: Question 5: That's a loaded question, for sure. The biggest key, knowing how to seperate IC values, from OOC values/opinions. A disclaimer is never a bad idea if you are going for something along those lines, but I would advise more to it. If you want to RP oppression, I say the best way to show it, but not show support for it is to give the read the POV of the oppressed peoples. Write a pice that follows the child or family trying to survive and what life is like for them.
[8:21 PM] Zwangzug: Depends on what form of post you're wanting to take. I like humor when it's clear that it's laughing at, not with, the regime, but not everyone can pull it off without sounding more offensive (or cliched). If your format allows, posts from an outsider point of view analyzing the culture might be viable.
[8:22 PM] Cer: Q5 There needs to be balance. If your nation slaughters x-element, does that x-element have a pesky underground thwarting efforts? Weaving small things in allows people to see that you, as a player, aren't out to genocide everything. You've thought things through and offer a grain of hope. This makes for a nice element in forum RP, weaving resistance into your totalitarian efforts.
[8:23 PM] moka: I agree, always need a resistance, and let them win on occasion, it is good for the plot and story.
[8:23 PM] Gren: Q5 continued: To use a historical example (and semi-ironically invoke Godwin), a lot of Nazis (yes, even Hitler himself) were human beings. Yes, they did horrible, horrible things, and nothing can excuse that, but that wasn't the entirety of their being.
[8:25 PM] Cer: Keep in mind, too, that your conduct in other forums reflects upon your nation approach. A blatant neo-Nazi in NSG running a fascist nation is going to raise brows.
[8:25 PM] Gren: Q5 part 3: And I think if you want to portray bigotry and oppression without seeming like an edgelord, you have to reflect that in your portrayal.(edited)
[8:25 PM] Cer: Very true, Gren.
[8:25 PM] Giovenith: Q5: Oh my god, this issue.
I have long since had a heavy pet peeve with the way prejudice is portrayed in a lot of NS RP, because so much of it just so goddamn nonsensical. I've seen players give their reasoning for why their country hates a group of people as just, "We're just xenophobic" or "We're just really racist" too many times to count, essentially, "We're racist because we're racist." Look, no racist really has a "good" reason for being the way they are, but the reasons are often at least understandable - as big of a bastard as Hitler was, it's not that difficult to put yourself in his shoes and trace the logic he used to persecute people. Prejudice is often born more out of fear than malice, it's less, "We hate these people outright" as it is, "We need to destroy them before they destroy us." A lot of players on NS are clearly more interested in being edgy cartoon villains than they are understanding the nature of cruelty.
Most people don't want to be bad. No one see's themselves as "the bad guy." We usually do bad things because we mistake them for good things, good things that are not too hard to understand. Remember this: people make mistakes, not, "people are sadistic animals."
[8:26 PM] Kyrusia: Question #6: What do the panelists think of events or competitions or awards designed to highlight under-represented groups in RP? For example, what about an event revolving around workshopping worldbuilding for non-US/European cultures/countries so that RPers don't have to go at it alone or with a limited set of tropes? Or maybe recognition as part of wider community awards for interesting PoC, gender-minority, sexual-minority, or other such characters from under-represented backgrounds? (Asked by Agy.)
[8:27 PM] moka: Those are right on Giovenith and gren
[8:28 PM] Zwangzug: I've never heard anything like that discussed, and suspect that it could in many cases come off as very cringeworthy. (I say this coming from a subforum culture that doesn't have the kind of structured leadership or mentorship traditions that other subforums do, so it's possible that something more organized could take root elsewhere.)
[8:28 PM] Gren: Q6: I'm mixed. On the one hand, I think if done properly, its an excellent idea, and would greatly benefit the community. On the other, I can just see the reaction now, people complaining about it 'pushing an agenda', etc.
Awards would be more likely to set that off, honestly. Its hard to see a good argument against the workshop idea, though.(edited)
[8:29 PM] Tilt: ^
[8:29 PM] Zwangzug: There've been occasional "bonus challenges" put up by the hosts (thread OPs) in the sports forum that are like "today, try to use the word 'rutabaga' in your roleplay for an extra challenge," and I could maybe see something very vaguely like "today, try to write a character from a different culture than yours," but again, it feels kind of patronizing.
[8:29 PM] Tilt: Q6. Competition - don't really need it. I feel more inclined to the individual initiative.
[8:29 PM] Cer: Q6 I think it's a good idea provided we don't screw it up. "Best Gay Writer" is fantastic, but not if it alienates the bisexual, the transgender, the minority. We are such a large and diverse site.
Another thing to consider is that some asshat will make the "Best White X" contest.
[8:29 PM] moka: Q6: I've never heard of one, but I would be curious to see how one is set up. If you have people familiar with the cultures you are exploring, then sure, go for it, but if the judges start with the same knowledge as you, I am not sure how the competition would work
[8:30 PM] Cer: I would like to see workshops on culture however. It would help mend some broken fences, especially in P2TM between the anime and Asian populations.
[8:30 PM] Gren: I agree, Cer.(edited)
[8:31 PM] Giovenith: Q6: I think events for under-recognized RPs and players would be great, but I'm honestly pretty skeptical of events that focus on the backgrounds of players. I understand the reasoning behind highlighting the achievements of minorities or disenfranchised groups in order to prove to the world that they're just as capable, BUT, there comes a certain time where pointing out people's differences becomes more psychologically detrimental than beneficial. Humans often work most cohesively when they focus on their similarities, not their differences. That however doesn't mean differences should be ignored. It's difficult to draw the line, and I'm not sure real life society has figured this out well enough yet let alone NS.(edited)
[8:32 PM] Zwangzug: Oh, are we talking about player backgrounds now?
[8:32 PM] Tilt: No, character backgrounds, wasn't it?
[8:32 PM] Cer: Also, as we've seen in the past, awards are popularity dog piles. There's no way to do them fairly (which is why we took to using judged panels for yearly writing contests in P2TM).
[8:32 PM] Gren: I thought it was character backgrounds.
[8:32 PM] Giovenith: Maybe I misread. :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:32 PM] Cer: I thought it was both.
[8:32 PM] Kyrusia: For the record: we have just passed the 30 minute mark. We can continue in 15-minute blocks overtime at the pleasure and leisure of our panelists.(edited)
[8:32 PM] Cer: (Please do continue)
[8:32 PM] Zwangzug: (Aye aye)
[8:32 PM] moka: I was late, so I am just making up time
[8:33 PM] Tilt: (Sure thing, also pie)
[8:33 PM] moka: (keep going)
[8:33 PM] Gren: I can go as long as everyone else wants to.
[8:33 PM] Kyrusia: Question #7: Do you think that roleplayers should distinctly attempt to make characters of different racial backgrounds, genders, etc in an attempt to not have an overarching gender or race in a RP game? I have often had the compulsion to specifically attempt to do so. (Asked by Thayr von Menschen.)
[8:35 PM] Gren: Q7: If they want to. The thing about embracing and engendering diversity, is that it works best horizontally, or from the ground up, not the top down. It should be something that should be encouraged, peer-to-peer, instead of OP-to-player, or Mentor-to-OP-and-player.
[8:36 PM] Giovenith: Q7: No. I believe people should create what they are comfortable with creating. Diversity is great, but I don't think it should come at the price of pressuring people into writing things they simply don't want to write. Not only is it not fair to them, but the character would likely not be a very good representation of their background, defeating the whole point.
Should people be encouraged to expand their horizons? Absolutely. But nobody should feel like they have to under some vague threat of not doing things good enough.(edited)
[8:36 PM] moka: Question 7: Are we talking variations on their IC people, or different OOC from them? If OOC, I completely understand if you are not comfortable with that and don't want to RP it. Ethnic backgrounds can be a minefield if you didn't OOC grow up a shade of "not-white". If you want to, learn about the culture, develop a general background for how this ethnic minority became a part of this RP. What cultural changes have happen to his family since they moved to the new nation? or is he still a citizen of the "homeland" culturally?(edited)
[8:37 PM] Cer: Q7 It depends on the game or setting. A nation is bound to be filled with natives. Some nations are not as inclusive (perhaps immigration isn't high?). Some nations are FT aliens and diversity is based on various species rather than differences in orientation or ethnicity. Let your NPCs depict the setting itself, the level of inclusiveness in that setting, etc.
Players, however, shouldn't be afraid to reach outside their comfort zone in P2TM. Have a badass drill sergeant? Why go with white? Make him Hispanic or Filipino as far as ethnicity. Make it a woman. Make it an old vet rather than a young buck. Explore, researching if you can, to expand your own horizons. Remain aware that you are naturally prone towards a stereotype if you're not careful with your approach.
[8:38 PM] Tilt: Q7. Hm. So much boils for me down to what the RPer wants to do within the setting, and whether it can be done well by the RPer (or if the RPer is willing to learn).
I find this a lot especially in multi-skill RPs, and that's another way to think about things. Often in such an RP you'll find people asking what specialty or niche hasn't been taken yet (survivalist, doctor, farmer, etc. or in military/spy RPs medic, sniper, regular guy, language guy, ...) and so it really depends. Then again, if you have a monocultural setting it really doesn't work. The Wild West, for example. The most exotic would probably be a Chinese railroad worker, if at all. So there's the setting.
Past that, it relies only on whether the RPer wants to take the effort to learn how to play an outgroup character well.
[8:40 PM] moka: That said, if you stay within your culture, I would suggest RPing a Woman, an older person, a gay/bi. even a kid. Just to try it out. I personally view it as 80% of the motivations and issues will be the same as when RPing a straight young male,. Being whatever difference isn't a defining feature, it is just another feature like hair color or height(edited)
[8:40 PM] Kyrusia: Question #8 - Clarification for #6: Also to clarify, I meant for both writers and characters. Most interesting transwoman would be a character award, for example, while for writers we might award the best writers who actively participate in their marginalized community (for example, best LGBT writer might be a writer of that background who's done work related to that community in RPing)? (Clarified by Agy.)
Question #6: What do the panelists think of events or competitions or awards designed to highlight under-represented groups in RP? For example, what about an event revolving around workshopping worldbuilding for non-US/European cultures/countries so that RPers don't have to go at it alone or with a limited set of tropes? Or maybe recognition as part of wider community awards for interesting PoC, gender-minority, sexual-minority, or other such characters from under-represented backgrounds? (Asked by Agy.)
(edited)
[8:41 PM] Giovenith: Q8: I'd be more open to awards based on character backgrounds, sure, especially backgrounds that aren't done a lot of justice in media.
[8:42 PM] Tilt: Q8. I'm still meh on competitions.
[8:42 PM] Zwangzug: I don't really like the idea of pressuring RPers to reveal more about themselves than they want to. If that's their MO, great, but it shouldn't be the standard.
[8:43 PM] Cer: Q8 Ditto as Tilt.
[8:43 PM] Giovenith: For example, gay characters are often done poorly by due to their "gayess" consuming their personality and/or their romances being portrayed as overly campy or sexualized. LGBT+ characters who have lives, goals, and personalities beyond these things and who fall in love like normal people are desperately in need of highlighting.
[8:44 PM] moka: Question 8: Same as everyone else. let people RP what they want, but feel free to learn more about people you are not familiar or comfortable with. You don't have to RP it, but it will, in general, improve your RPs if you give yourself the ability to learn what life is like for other people(edited)
[8:45 PM] Gren: Q8: I agree with Gio, but with the reservation that the awards shouldn't solely be focused on how marginalized the character's background is. I also don't want to be given an award just for being the best trans RPer. If I'm going to be given an award for my skills, I would rather it be Best RPer overall, and let my status as trans stand on its own. Even if my being trans informs my writing, its not the sole (or even primary) contributor to it.
[8:45 PM] moka: Exactly, Giovenith , being Gay should be just another aspect of them. Maybe they bring their husband to the Royal Ball, or ask their buddy if they should ask for the dude's number, or maybe not bring it up at all.
[8:45 PM] Giovenith: Yup. No minority wants to feel pitied.(edited)
[8:46 PM] Cer: I don't see many believable trans or LGBT characters on NS. That sounds mean. However, when I encounter these characters while browsing threads, I see a shallow individual. I don't believe they are "real". Instead, I see a Plasticine thing lacking any depth beyond "I'm this!" The same can be said for other types of characters as well.
[8:46 PM] moka: AMEN to that
[8:46 PM] Cer: I don't want to reward players for 2D bullshit.
[8:46 PM] Kyrusia: Question #9: As far as gender is concerned, how well received or common would you say crossed gendered RPing is? (not sure if that's the right term) But for example, like a male player playing many female characters over male ones and vice versa in their RPs. (Asked by Ched.)
[8:46 PM] Gren: I agree, Cer. That's why I'm really in favor of the workshop idea. To help players get past that.
[8:47 PM] Tilt: Q9. Oh boy, Ched. Cross playing is pretty common and I've never seen anyone raise an eyebrow.
[8:47 PM] Tilt: And you know I do that often.
[8:47 PM] Gren: Q9: I see it a lot. There's a lot of characters who are women, and the predominant gender demographic on NS is "dude".
[8:48 PM] Zwangzug: I think it's fairly well-received in the sports realm anyway, if not super common. It helps that we often RP many characters at a time, so it's somewhat common to have maybe a few of a different gender from the RPer.
[8:48 PM] Zwangzug: (Yes, men and women can play alongside each other in the NationStates football World Cup! :smile: )
[8:48 PM] moka: Question 9: I am a dude, but I have plently of female characters in my nation. Honestly, the best way to do it, at least for me: Design a character, and then once it is all done, flip a coin if it is male or female. Gender is pretty arbitrary stat.
[8:49 PM] Gren: I roll a d6 instead.
[8:49 PM] Giovenith: Q9: I've never seen anyone have a problem with it in principle. The only real issue I've felt is when the player plays the character stereotypically - I have a vivid memory that I bring up often of just groaning at a scene of a bunch of male players having their female characters sit around and talk for a considerable time about bra sizes. That... that's not a thing, oh my god. I haven't seen much of an instance with female players stereotyping male characters, but I'm sure it happens.
[8:49 PM] moka: ....what?
[8:49 PM] Giovenith: Yeah, that happened.
[8:49 PM] Kyrusia: [Just to add comment: or when they play a character of another gender for the purposes of vapid wish fulfillment.](edited)
[8:49 PM] moka: shakes head
[8:49 PM] Cer: That's why we need it, Gren. It would greatly help players.
Q8 This is a difficult one. I've seen female players roll their eyes over "lesbian sex" and cheap portrayals of women. "This isn't how we [lesbians] act! This isn't how we [women] approach life!" In P2TM, we have a big issue with men playing anime girls, and how those characters are received by female players.
[8:51 PM] Gren: Clearly, women only exist to fulfill dudes fantasies. /sarcasm(edited)
[8:51 PM] moka: I do see a lot of women being protrayed as "Super sexy" regardless of job or title, people can be average looking or even unattractive, but outside beauty shouldn't be an easy indicator of good/bad or nice/mean.
[8:51 PM] Cer: Followup to that, Kyru. Sometimes RP is a good way for a transperson to explore their gender. They might be young and in a male body, but identify as female, for example. This allows them to "try out" things without risking family or real life social disdain. There's nothing wrong with this, provided the player keeps in mind that self-insert characters are not a good idea, nor healthy in the long-run.(edited)
[8:52 PM] Kyrusia: [ I was more speaking of the not-exactly-uncommon issue of a male player playing a female character for the purposes of, "OMG BOOBS." ]
[8:53 PM] Cer: [ I know. :stuck_out_tongue: I was championing a cause! CHAMPIONING!]
[8:53 PM] Giovenith: "OMG BOOBS" - so simple, yet so freaking accurate.
[8:53 PM] Kyrusia: Question #10: What are the pros and cons of playing as a nation comprised of a majority of individuals that are considered "non-human"? Is it concerning that players who do play these sorts of settings are underrepresented in the NS RP community? (Playstyle; asked by Sailor.)
[8:54 PM] Kyrusia: Also, note: less than ten minutes remain in this panel's hour slot. We may continue in blocks of 15-minute overtime at the leisure and pleasure of our panelists.(edited)
[8:55 PM] moka: to go back to 9 really fast: One thing to remember while RPing a woman, is that being viewed as 'OMG BOOBS' is an issue women face. It may be annoying, or even scary depending on what kind of character is oggling them. Not every woman is going to feel flattered every time some guys comment's on their arse or 'good lookin body'
[8:55 PM] Gren: Q10: I wouldn't say concerning, and I've seen a decent amount of non-humans. I feel its a good way to explore not only the possibilites of other forms of life, but to also hold up as a mirror to better examine human nature.
[8:55 PM] Zwangzug: I wouldn't say that it's a concern, given the issues canon seems to treat most nations as human I don't have a lot of serious experience with this, but I'd say you need to either do a lot of creative worldbuilding on your own to avoid cheap ripoffs from existing franchises, work in contexts where most nations are on the same level regardless of RP potential, or find an RPing group that's willing to go with your style (which sounds hard and isn't something I've done.)
[8:55 PM] Giovenith: Q10: Honestly, it depends on what you're playing. Certain species are more pushed out of the community than others. Animal-anthros and ponies for example are often boldly displayed on players' and OPs' "WILL NOT ACCEPT" lists. Humanoid species have a better time. We obviously can't make people play with anyone they don't want to, but I think it would do good to remind others that ultimately it is characterization and personality that one clicks with most while playing and not species.
[8:56 PM] Maltropia: Q10 - (hi, I'm Mal, I make maps) - It's pretty darned hard to write as non-humans in the predominating hard-MT setting of most of NS RP.
[8:56 PM] Cer: Q10 Most fun ever. I thrive on playing the "forgottens" as well as the "aliens".
For me, FT allows me to play aliens. It's actually an easy process because Western thought is foreign to me. By exploring and developing their culture, I'm forced to examine real world cultures. I have to think outside the box if I don't want "a guy in a rubber suit".
And if I keep on this subject, we'll be here until midnight. Sorry.
[8:57 PM] Tilt: Q10. Not really familiar with RPing such a nation or its challenges.
[8:59 PM] moka: Question 10: Non humans, I fully support the idea of non-human RP. Just be aware that not everyone else does. It might be my MT/PMT background, but as Maltropia said, it is darn hard to make it work. Ponies and Nekos being the most common I have seen, you just need to find people who are ok with that to RP with. and as someone else said, it is all about characterization. I am sure we have all seen enough sci-fi and enjoyed for characters that are non human, becuase we were given a chance to learn who they are as a person
[8:59 PM] Cer: ^
[9:00 PM] Kyrusia: Question #11: What's your favorite alien or fantasy race you've made, and why? (Asked by Ched.)
[9:00 PM] moka: Question 11: I've made? Nothing that saw the light of day or even dared to post online... .
[9:01 PM] Kyrusia: (I'll get my FT hooks in you one day, Moka. One day...)
[9:01 PM] Giovenith: Q11: I haven't really made up a unique race, just variations of existing races. I like my Giovenithian dragons for their quirky animal nature, as well as my headcanons for ancient pony society.
[9:01 PM] moka: digs deeper into the planet
[9:01 PM] Zwangzug: I only have one nonhuman race on NS, from my puppet. A species of robots who played ice hockey very well. :smiley:
[9:01 PM] Zwangzug: *Actually that's technically not true but they're the only ones I've done anything of substance with on the forums so we'll go with that.
[9:02 PM] Tilt: Q11. I've never had a unique race. The most I could say I've done is making a crazy sentient rabbit.
[9:02 PM] Giovenith: But I love the crazy sentient rabbit. :3
[9:02 PM] Tilt: :smile:
[9:02 PM] Tilt: TY!
[9:02 PM] moka: Q11: in MT/PMR RPs, I do like adopting other people's races and uniqueness into my own cultural melting pot, even Nekos and other unique races are given a home in the PUF. I just often talk about to their creators to make sure I am portraiying their people right
[9:03 PM] Cer: Q11 For Nation-play, my Thade. Six-legged space weasels with warped humor. For non-nation RP, probably my colony of atomic kittens.
[9:03 PM] Kyrusia: Question #12: If you are someone from a unique culture, ethnicity, orientation, etc, do you feel you're treated fairly and equally in the RP forums? (Provided by Cer.)
[9:05 PM] Gren: Q12: I generally feel like people do treat me fairly and equally, at least in the RP side of things, although I do get the nagging suspicion sometimes that some people are going well out of their way to avoid offending me (though I'm pretty hard to offend in the first place).
[9:05 PM] Tilt: Q12. How unique is unique? I can't say that I qualify.
[9:05 PM] Giovenith: Q12: I've never discriminated against or put down. Then again, I don't exactly go around airing the details of my identity - people often assume I'm a somewhat effeminate, nerdy young man before figuring out I'm a girl. Maybe if I was more obvious about it I would feel differently, but as of right now, things have been pretty smooth.
👍2
[9:06 PM] moka: Question 12: well... I mean, my ethnic background doesn't get too much attention on the forums, but when it does, it seems... mostly respectable. Honestly, the hardest part is the being ethnicly one thing and culturally another, which is something I don't see very often. Why not have an Asian with a texan accent? or a ethnic Russian who was born and raised in Rio?
[9:06 PM] Cer: Q12 As a player, yes. I'm treated fairly and equally. Then again, most don't know my orientation nor my other traits. I don't broadcast it often outside my own groups. My culture, not so much. However, I attribute that to a lack of quality exposure to it rather than purposeful intent.
[9:07 PM] Tilt: Intriguing, moka.
[9:08 PM] Gren: Q12 part 2: Like, I'm not saying people should be more disrespectful. But I think most people will recognize that attitude some people have, when they're trying to be as non-offensive as possible (almost like the social equivalent of trying to avoid stepping on broken glass), even when they wouldn't be offensive if they just acted normally.
[9:08 PM] moka: It is a side effect of a "melting pot" or diverse culture that is often overlooked, in general, not even just the forums.
[9:09 PM] FRFS: Q12: I would hope the level of respect and report between cultures and ethnicities on the forums are getting better. Everyone deserves to have a fun time and feel like they belong here. That we can all have some fun with our creations, no matter where we come from. Also. Hi everyone.
[9:09 PM] moka: What gren said.
[9:09 PM] Cer: nod "Deer in headlights", for some. I've had players ask me if a trans player was offended over the wrong pronoun usage. ("Go ask them. I'm not your mediator!")
[9:09 PM] moka: hi frfs
[9:09 PM] Kyrusia: Question #13: What are some ways a player can portray discrimination that is relevant to current events, but does not default to simple caricature on the part of either given "side" of the debate or argument?
[9:09 PM] Tilt: o/ frfs
[9:10 PM] Tilt: Q13. Relevant to current events? I'm wary of this.
[9:10 PM] Kyrusia: For the record, this will be our final question for this panel.
[9:11 PM] Gren: Q13: I think I covered this earlier, is to give it nuance.
Give all sides assholes. Give all sides positive characters.(edited)
[9:12 PM] Zwangzug: CharacterS. Plural, I think is the thing to emphasize. Don't put all the eggs in one basket.
[9:13 PM] moka: Question 13: skipping the 'current events' aspect of this question, the best way to protray discrimination without sounding one sided is to explore what created that discrimination in the first place. It is often more than just "We hate them" or "They are taking are jerbs". any times cultures mix, there will be misunderstandings, and accidental offfenses. While it may be polite to not finish a meal in one culture("You fed me so much I can't finish, thank you") another might take offense to that("This food is terrible, I tried to be polite but damn... I just can't)
[9:13 PM] moka: often times it starts with a breakdown in communication, and then snowballs down from there
[9:13 PM] FRFS: Q13: that's really tough. You have to remain in an artistic fashion. I mean there are dozens of movies, books, and theater plays that deal with sensitive moments of discrimination and prejudice against relevant things that find real high acclaim. It's hard to know what "doing it right" is though. Because you're right, it's hard to remain subjective and not look like you're taking a side or picking on someone. Really is comes down to how you feel about it. If you feel like you're making fun of someone or doing something distastefully, you probably are. Take a step back and think about what you are trying to do, if you can make yourself okay with what you wrote, you're probably moving in the right direction.
[9:14 PM] Cer: Q13 Protestors are faceless, a throng. People care about the old black woman holding a sign at a protest, speaking from her heart as she recalls her past trials. You have to humanize discrimination in order for readers to feel any empathy (or ignorance/apathy) towards it in your story. You have to get under its thick hide and discover the microcosms of the community, both sides of it, if you want to portray it with any accuracy.
"I hate x!" isn't an answer. Why? What caused the bigotry? What fuels it? You can't wrap it all up in a blanket and call it a story element if you haven't taken the time to research the unique bits of it.(edited)
[9:15 PM] FRFS: Q13:Maybe find someone you respect to look at what you've done, and ask their opinion on it. More eyes that see what you do, can give you real good perspective that you may not have.
[9:18 PM] moka: If you do want to try to get into Current events, understand that there are people out there who will be turned off and hate it, for simply not presenting their side in the best light. They will be vocal about it, and it doesn't matter which side, both sides always have their loud minorities. Any time you address current issues, you are walking an extremely fine line.
[9:18 PM] Giovenith: Q13: It's not easy. It takes a certain careful empathy, the ability to understand other points of views without agreeing with them or becoming overly frustrated. A big thing you want to avoid is portraying these people as angry, irrational lunatics right off the bat - that's a common trap. I said this before, although there are no good reasons for prejudice there are understandable reasons. J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" series was famously all about fantastical discrimination, the discrimination against wizards born to human parents. In the villains' eyes, such wizards had "stolen" magic that wasn't rightfully theirs by not being part of a wizard family. Humans in their eyes were also worth subjugation, which while one might not agree with, it's easy to see why one would think that because, you know... not having magical powers kind of sucks.
[9:18 PM] Maltropia: Just as an aside, since this question is mostly being answered from a different angle, moving the goalposts to an entirely different pitch used to be the way to shine a light on an injustice without doing so in so many words. Rather than "Rosa Parks won't give up her bus seat," it was "Alien Zibzob won't get off the hypershuttle." Removing it entirely from peoples preconceived notions of right and wrong (e.g. removing the object of their subconscious racism) can help to more clearly expose the injustices being perpetrated.
[9:18 PM] Kyrusia: Thank you all for your time and contributions this evening. Hopefully our audience found such both enlightening and entertaining.
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: "Diversity in the Roleplaying Community"
TIME: COMPLETED
Our next panels for Monday will tentatively be as follows:
OP Management and Running a Roleplay (Early Hour Panel) — 12PM Eastern/4PM GMT
Conflict Resolution and Out-of-Character Drama (Late Hour Panel) — 7PM Eastern/11PM GMT
Observations on Gameplay — 9PM Eastern/1AM GMT
Hope to see all of you then!
[9:11 PM] Gren: Q13: I think I covered this earlier, is to give it nuance.
[/i][/i][/b]
**NS Roleplay Symposium 2017**
LOCATION: Symposium Hall
TOPIC: "Diversity in the Roleplaying Community"
TIME: 9-10 PM Eastern, Sunday, July 9th
Good evening and welcome to our fifth panel of the Symposium. I'm Kyrusia, your discussion moderator for this session.
We'll look at diversity in the roleplaying communtity, to include different perspectives both as they impact the community in an Out-of-Character fashion and In-Character. Please keep this topic constrained as to the roleplaying community; political name-calling, derogatory remarks (to include those targeting others based upon their race, creed, gender, etc.), and other disruptive behavior will not be tolerated and may result in your immediate muting at the discretion of the panel moderator.
Panellists, please introduce yourselves and tell us which subforums you haunt.
I also thank guests for their patience. We will pull your questions from the #questions_chamber. To make it easier on us, please keep chatter to the main #ns_mentors channel. Thank you.
BEGIN
::
[8:01 PM] Tilt: Hello, am Tilt. I'm a lurker in P2TM and a member of the Madhouse RP group there.
[8:01 PM] Giovenith: Hello, I'm Gio, I'm from P2TM.
[8:02 PM] Gren: I'm Gren, P2TM resident, and fellow Madhouse member.
[8:02 PM] Zwangzug: Hello, I'm Zwangzug, mainly of NS Sports (and sometimes the issues subforum).
[8:02 PM] Cer: I'm Cer, a P2TM Denizen, and a Madhouse founder.
[8:03 PM] Kyrusia: Welcome, panelists.
[8:03 PM] Kyrusia: Question #1: How would you define diversity in the RP community? (Asked by @sailor)
[8:05 PM] Gren: I find it entails a lot of things. Not just ethnicity, religion, gender, etc. of the roleplayers themselves, but also in individual style, type of RP, and setting. And ultimately, how both of those sets of factors relate to each other.(edited)
[8:05 PM] Giovenith: Q1: Diversity probably can't be measured on a website the same way it can in real life because membership is purely voluntary, therefore the varying percentages of different kinds of people on NS is largely out of our control. Ergo, "diversity" on NS is probably best described as the willingness to recognize the differences between players that are here, respect them, and be willing to take them into account while gaming.
[8:06 PM] Tilt: Q1. Diversity in RP genre, setting, and characters.
[8:06 PM] Cer: Q1 A diverse RP community is one that pulls in people from varied backgrounds, nationalities, and political beliefs. It draws in people of color, cis and transgender persons, and so on. We're not united by what we are or what we believe, but in our passion for gaming/roleplaying. It's a great responsibility - one that hinges upon respect for the person as an individual.
[8:06 PM] Zwangzug: There are several kinds of diversity on display in the RP community. Diversity of writing styles shows up in that some people prefer dry news reports, some prefer character introspection, some prefer political intrigue. The game provides a crude first-order approximation of "nation categories," and to the extent that you run with those, there are a variety of cultures on display that are (partly subconsciously) drawn from your RL cultural influences. I personally don't think a lot about "diversity" as an identity-politics label among other RPers in contrast to other sites or locations
[8:07 PM] Kyrusia: Question #2: How do you feel about the state of diversity within the roleplaying community in general, both with regard to the player base and to narrative/roleplaying? What would you like to see change or be done differently? (Elaboration; related to Eridani Imperium's request.)
[8:08 PM] Cer: Q2 We have a good mix already, though we could use more RP depicting it. That change will come, in time and though player effort.
[8:09 PM] Zwangzug: With regard to the player base: obviously, don't jump to conclusions about people behind the screen before you talk to them. If someone happens to be a minority (at least among NSers) along some axis, don't assume that they'll be happy to provide moral support or empathy for everyone else in the same boat.
[8:09 PM] Cer: Good point, Zwang.
[8:09 PM] Zwangzug: With regard to narrative/roleplaying: don't elevate a certain style of writing on a pedestal and act like it's the only way to be a talented writer, whether implicitly or explicitly.
[8:10 PM] Tilt: Q2. I think the player community in P2TM is fairly diverse. I would like to see more original RP not necessarily based on an existing work, or at least not heavily so. Ditto for characters though that's more of an individual initiative to expand beyond one's comfort zone.
[8:10 PM] Giovenith: Q2: This is a complicated issue because again, we're dealing with the online world here. There's a certain disconnect when everyone is wearing a digital mask, even when we intellectually know what that person is like in real life, especially when we're taking on certain roles in roleplay. In a weird way, harmony in diversity is achieved because our differences aren't as prominently displayed as they would in real life.
That doesn't necessarily mean there are no issues. For example, players creating caricatures or stereotypes of a certain group of people that another player falls into is always a looming concern.(edited)
[8:10 PM] Kyrusia: Question #3: How do you think roleplayers should approach the issue of character diversity when they do not resemble their characters? To give an example, what if I wanted to write a character for an RP whose point-of-origin is a foreign real-life country? What sort of considerations should I keep in mind to ensure my portrayal is accurate, interesting, and not offensive to people from said country? This of course goes beyond nationality and can include things like sexuality, race, gender, and etc. (By Agy)
Related: [How] would you advise someone in RPing a character/nation of a different race/ethnicity/gender/religion as them? (By Rhodevus)
[8:11 PM] Gren: Q2: In terms of writing and style, I think we have excellent diversity in the community. In terms of diversity of the roleplayers, I feel there is a decent amount, but it seems like there's a bit of a reluctance to embrace that, at least that I see. I'd like to see people abandon the "ew, idpol" (which seems vaguely-defined) attitudes.
[8:12 PM] Gren: Q3: Research, research, research.
[8:12 PM] Gren: That's honestly the only way I can think of to do it right.
[8:13 PM] Gren: And not just wikipedia (though that can be extremely helpful). Seek out people of that background, to get a part of their perspective.
[8:13 PM] Cer: Q3 PLEASE RESEARCH. Cultural misappropriation happens, yes, but there have been instances where cultures are taken completely out of context and portrayed in ways that are not only insulting, but outright bigoted.
Listen, also. Players might politely approach you via TG to point out a mistake. Take it with a grain of salt, and try to be a bit sympathetic towards their own stance.
[8:13 PM] Zwangzug: In contexts where it's feasible, I would suggest having more than one character at a time of a given gender/ethnicity/etc. If you have (say) two women interacting with each other among a mixed-gender cast, it won't just be "oh the one woman is acting like this because she's a woman;" there's room for "some women are like this, others are like that, and they're just as diverse as men."
[8:13 PM] Tilt: Q3. I'm a huge fan of research. Honestly, the best way is likely to ask someone who's from that cultural element you want to RP.
[8:13 PM] Giovenith: Q3: That's always tricky. You don't want to make the character so wildly different that you make them seem inhuman and thus insulting, but you also don't want to assume that everybody in the world thinks and acts exactly like you. Some good advice I think would be to look to people of those groups that you personally know. Also, as others pointed out, research is key.
[8:14 PM] Zwangzug: Similarly, recognize that not all "minority identity" elements are going to be salient at any given moment. Sometimes a religious person is going to be thinking about their religion; other times they're going to be thinking about the ballgame/election/dance/whatever else is going on.
[8:15 PM] Kyrusia: Question #4: More to nation-based RP, do you think we're oversaturated with one particular government type in those RPs over others? Like way too many empires over republics or democracies? And if so, is there a problem with that? (Playstyle; asked by Ched.)
[8:16 PM] Gren: Q4: From what I've seen, there's a pretty decent mix, so I'd say there's no oversaturation.(edited)
[8:16 PM] moka: Q3: As everyone else has said, RESEARCH, RESEARCH RESEARCH, especially if it is a real life nation. but I agree it is best to ask someone who is familiar with that culture. Wikipedia and the internet will only go so far.. and if you are not familiar with the study of cultural differences, it is easy to come off as sterotyping or, best case, awkward
[8:16 PM] moka: also, Hi, I am @moka , figured I would join in and offer my opinions/advice during the Diversity panel
[8:17 PM] Kyrusia: Welcome. :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:17 PM] Giovenith: Q4: I wouldn't say we're necessarily saturated with a strict government type as we are saturated with a bunch of government types that all suspiciously seem to operate in much the same way: namely, that the leadership is so smart, self-assured, and "obviously" right that no one ever seems to question their judgment, as opposed to real life where we crucify our leadership for wearing the wrong colored tie. If it's a democracy, the people always vote in favor of what the leader already believed. If it's a dictatorship, the people are proud to obey the leader's every command and see no drawbacks that they're not willing to put up with.
Basically, President Mary Sue.(edited)
[8:18 PM] Cer: Q4 If I'd change anything, it would be to bump the leaderships' ages. So many are 16-20.(edited)
[8:19 PM] Giovenith: ^Mostly because the players themselves are around 16 - 20 and can't imagine an older mindset.
[8:19 PM] Cer: nod
[8:19 PM] Tilt: Q4. I'm not really aware of any prevailing trend in governments in RP beyond marriage events.
[8:19 PM] moka: Question 4: So many democracies... so little elections. Not to say that is bad per se, we are after all RPing what we want. And I do see a lot of good empires and other government types. It is just that the democratic process is often times a lot more...chaotic than I see it playing out in RP. Democracy is hard to RP
[8:19 PM] Tilt: So I abstain.
[8:19 PM] Kyrusia: Question #5: What would you suggest is the best way to portray racism, bigotry or political oppression in one's nation without coming off as someone merely trying to be offensive? (Asked by Thoricia.)
[8:19 PM] Giovenith: (sighs and cracks fingers)
[8:21 PM] Tilt: Q5. Fantastic racism/whatever bigotry is a trope. I think learning to play with it (in the trope connotation, not the RP one) takes a deft touch, and that's something only attainable by practice; except practicing in itself is risky.(edited)
[8:21 PM] Gren: Q5: Nuance. I don't think its bad to cover it from one side or the other, as long as its representation isn't like a cardboard cutout or like when Wile E Coyote painted the obviously-fake tunnel in the side of the rock.
[8:21 PM] moka: Question 5: That's a loaded question, for sure. The biggest key, knowing how to seperate IC values, from OOC values/opinions. A disclaimer is never a bad idea if you are going for something along those lines, but I would advise more to it. If you want to RP oppression, I say the best way to show it, but not show support for it is to give the read the POV of the oppressed peoples. Write a pice that follows the child or family trying to survive and what life is like for them.
[8:21 PM] Zwangzug: Depends on what form of post you're wanting to take. I like humor when it's clear that it's laughing at, not with, the regime, but not everyone can pull it off without sounding more offensive (or cliched). If your format allows, posts from an outsider point of view analyzing the culture might be viable.
[8:22 PM] Cer: Q5 There needs to be balance. If your nation slaughters x-element, does that x-element have a pesky underground thwarting efforts? Weaving small things in allows people to see that you, as a player, aren't out to genocide everything. You've thought things through and offer a grain of hope. This makes for a nice element in forum RP, weaving resistance into your totalitarian efforts.
[8:23 PM] moka: I agree, always need a resistance, and let them win on occasion, it is good for the plot and story.
[8:23 PM] Gren: Q5 continued: To use a historical example (and semi-ironically invoke Godwin), a lot of Nazis (yes, even Hitler himself) were human beings. Yes, they did horrible, horrible things, and nothing can excuse that, but that wasn't the entirety of their being.
[8:25 PM] Cer: Keep in mind, too, that your conduct in other forums reflects upon your nation approach. A blatant neo-Nazi in NSG running a fascist nation is going to raise brows.
[8:25 PM] Gren: Q5 part 3: And I think if you want to portray bigotry and oppression without seeming like an edgelord, you have to reflect that in your portrayal.(edited)
[8:25 PM] Cer: Very true, Gren.
[8:25 PM] Giovenith: Q5: Oh my god, this issue.
I have long since had a heavy pet peeve with the way prejudice is portrayed in a lot of NS RP, because so much of it just so goddamn nonsensical. I've seen players give their reasoning for why their country hates a group of people as just, "We're just xenophobic" or "We're just really racist" too many times to count, essentially, "We're racist because we're racist." Look, no racist really has a "good" reason for being the way they are, but the reasons are often at least understandable - as big of a bastard as Hitler was, it's not that difficult to put yourself in his shoes and trace the logic he used to persecute people. Prejudice is often born more out of fear than malice, it's less, "We hate these people outright" as it is, "We need to destroy them before they destroy us." A lot of players on NS are clearly more interested in being edgy cartoon villains than they are understanding the nature of cruelty.
Most people don't want to be bad. No one see's themselves as "the bad guy." We usually do bad things because we mistake them for good things, good things that are not too hard to understand. Remember this: people make mistakes, not, "people are sadistic animals."
[8:26 PM] Kyrusia: Question #6: What do the panelists think of events or competitions or awards designed to highlight under-represented groups in RP? For example, what about an event revolving around workshopping worldbuilding for non-US/European cultures/countries so that RPers don't have to go at it alone or with a limited set of tropes? Or maybe recognition as part of wider community awards for interesting PoC, gender-minority, sexual-minority, or other such characters from under-represented backgrounds? (Asked by Agy.)
[8:27 PM] moka: Those are right on Giovenith and gren
[8:28 PM] Zwangzug: I've never heard anything like that discussed, and suspect that it could in many cases come off as very cringeworthy. (I say this coming from a subforum culture that doesn't have the kind of structured leadership or mentorship traditions that other subforums do, so it's possible that something more organized could take root elsewhere.)
[8:28 PM] Gren: Q6: I'm mixed. On the one hand, I think if done properly, its an excellent idea, and would greatly benefit the community. On the other, I can just see the reaction now, people complaining about it 'pushing an agenda', etc.
Awards would be more likely to set that off, honestly. Its hard to see a good argument against the workshop idea, though.(edited)
[8:29 PM] Tilt: ^
[8:29 PM] Zwangzug: There've been occasional "bonus challenges" put up by the hosts (thread OPs) in the sports forum that are like "today, try to use the word 'rutabaga' in your roleplay for an extra challenge," and I could maybe see something very vaguely like "today, try to write a character from a different culture than yours," but again, it feels kind of patronizing.
[8:29 PM] Tilt: Q6. Competition - don't really need it. I feel more inclined to the individual initiative.
[8:29 PM] Cer: Q6 I think it's a good idea provided we don't screw it up. "Best Gay Writer" is fantastic, but not if it alienates the bisexual, the transgender, the minority. We are such a large and diverse site.
Another thing to consider is that some asshat will make the "Best White X" contest.
[8:29 PM] moka: Q6: I've never heard of one, but I would be curious to see how one is set up. If you have people familiar with the cultures you are exploring, then sure, go for it, but if the judges start with the same knowledge as you, I am not sure how the competition would work
[8:30 PM] Cer: I would like to see workshops on culture however. It would help mend some broken fences, especially in P2TM between the anime and Asian populations.
[8:30 PM] Gren: I agree, Cer.(edited)
[8:31 PM] Giovenith: Q6: I think events for under-recognized RPs and players would be great, but I'm honestly pretty skeptical of events that focus on the backgrounds of players. I understand the reasoning behind highlighting the achievements of minorities or disenfranchised groups in order to prove to the world that they're just as capable, BUT, there comes a certain time where pointing out people's differences becomes more psychologically detrimental than beneficial. Humans often work most cohesively when they focus on their similarities, not their differences. That however doesn't mean differences should be ignored. It's difficult to draw the line, and I'm not sure real life society has figured this out well enough yet let alone NS.(edited)
[8:32 PM] Zwangzug: Oh, are we talking about player backgrounds now?
[8:32 PM] Tilt: No, character backgrounds, wasn't it?
[8:32 PM] Cer: Also, as we've seen in the past, awards are popularity dog piles. There's no way to do them fairly (which is why we took to using judged panels for yearly writing contests in P2TM).
[8:32 PM] Gren: I thought it was character backgrounds.
[8:32 PM] Giovenith: Maybe I misread. :stuck_out_tongue:
[8:32 PM] Cer: I thought it was both.
[8:32 PM] Kyrusia: For the record: we have just passed the 30 minute mark. We can continue in 15-minute blocks overtime at the pleasure and leisure of our panelists.(edited)
[8:32 PM] Cer: (Please do continue)
[8:32 PM] Zwangzug: (Aye aye)
[8:32 PM] moka: I was late, so I am just making up time
[8:33 PM] Tilt: (Sure thing, also pie)
[8:33 PM] moka: (keep going)
[8:33 PM] Gren: I can go as long as everyone else wants to.
[8:33 PM] Kyrusia: Question #7: Do you think that roleplayers should distinctly attempt to make characters of different racial backgrounds, genders, etc in an attempt to not have an overarching gender or race in a RP game? I have often had the compulsion to specifically attempt to do so. (Asked by Thayr von Menschen.)
[8:35 PM] Gren: Q7: If they want to. The thing about embracing and engendering diversity, is that it works best horizontally, or from the ground up, not the top down. It should be something that should be encouraged, peer-to-peer, instead of OP-to-player, or Mentor-to-OP-and-player.
[8:36 PM] Giovenith: Q7: No. I believe people should create what they are comfortable with creating. Diversity is great, but I don't think it should come at the price of pressuring people into writing things they simply don't want to write. Not only is it not fair to them, but the character would likely not be a very good representation of their background, defeating the whole point.
Should people be encouraged to expand their horizons? Absolutely. But nobody should feel like they have to under some vague threat of not doing things good enough.(edited)
[8:36 PM] moka: Question 7: Are we talking variations on their IC people, or different OOC from them? If OOC, I completely understand if you are not comfortable with that and don't want to RP it. Ethnic backgrounds can be a minefield if you didn't OOC grow up a shade of "not-white". If you want to, learn about the culture, develop a general background for how this ethnic minority became a part of this RP. What cultural changes have happen to his family since they moved to the new nation? or is he still a citizen of the "homeland" culturally?(edited)
[8:37 PM] Cer: Q7 It depends on the game or setting. A nation is bound to be filled with natives. Some nations are not as inclusive (perhaps immigration isn't high?). Some nations are FT aliens and diversity is based on various species rather than differences in orientation or ethnicity. Let your NPCs depict the setting itself, the level of inclusiveness in that setting, etc.
Players, however, shouldn't be afraid to reach outside their comfort zone in P2TM. Have a badass drill sergeant? Why go with white? Make him Hispanic or Filipino as far as ethnicity. Make it a woman. Make it an old vet rather than a young buck. Explore, researching if you can, to expand your own horizons. Remain aware that you are naturally prone towards a stereotype if you're not careful with your approach.
[8:38 PM] Tilt: Q7. Hm. So much boils for me down to what the RPer wants to do within the setting, and whether it can be done well by the RPer (or if the RPer is willing to learn).
I find this a lot especially in multi-skill RPs, and that's another way to think about things. Often in such an RP you'll find people asking what specialty or niche hasn't been taken yet (survivalist, doctor, farmer, etc. or in military/spy RPs medic, sniper, regular guy, language guy, ...) and so it really depends. Then again, if you have a monocultural setting it really doesn't work. The Wild West, for example. The most exotic would probably be a Chinese railroad worker, if at all. So there's the setting.
Past that, it relies only on whether the RPer wants to take the effort to learn how to play an outgroup character well.
[8:40 PM] moka: That said, if you stay within your culture, I would suggest RPing a Woman, an older person, a gay/bi. even a kid. Just to try it out. I personally view it as 80% of the motivations and issues will be the same as when RPing a straight young male,. Being whatever difference isn't a defining feature, it is just another feature like hair color or height(edited)
[8:40 PM] Kyrusia: Question #8 - Clarification for #6: Also to clarify, I meant for both writers and characters. Most interesting transwoman would be a character award, for example, while for writers we might award the best writers who actively participate in their marginalized community (for example, best LGBT writer might be a writer of that background who's done work related to that community in RPing)? (Clarified by Agy.)
Question #6: What do the panelists think of events or competitions or awards designed to highlight under-represented groups in RP? For example, what about an event revolving around workshopping worldbuilding for non-US/European cultures/countries so that RPers don't have to go at it alone or with a limited set of tropes? Or maybe recognition as part of wider community awards for interesting PoC, gender-minority, sexual-minority, or other such characters from under-represented backgrounds? (Asked by Agy.)
(edited)
[8:41 PM] Giovenith: Q8: I'd be more open to awards based on character backgrounds, sure, especially backgrounds that aren't done a lot of justice in media.
[8:42 PM] Tilt: Q8. I'm still meh on competitions.
[8:42 PM] Zwangzug: I don't really like the idea of pressuring RPers to reveal more about themselves than they want to. If that's their MO, great, but it shouldn't be the standard.
[8:43 PM] Cer: Q8 Ditto as Tilt.
[8:43 PM] Giovenith: For example, gay characters are often done poorly by due to their "gayess" consuming their personality and/or their romances being portrayed as overly campy or sexualized. LGBT+ characters who have lives, goals, and personalities beyond these things and who fall in love like normal people are desperately in need of highlighting.
[8:44 PM] moka: Question 8: Same as everyone else. let people RP what they want, but feel free to learn more about people you are not familiar or comfortable with. You don't have to RP it, but it will, in general, improve your RPs if you give yourself the ability to learn what life is like for other people(edited)
[8:45 PM] Gren: Q8: I agree with Gio, but with the reservation that the awards shouldn't solely be focused on how marginalized the character's background is. I also don't want to be given an award just for being the best trans RPer. If I'm going to be given an award for my skills, I would rather it be Best RPer overall, and let my status as trans stand on its own. Even if my being trans informs my writing, its not the sole (or even primary) contributor to it.
[8:45 PM] moka: Exactly, Giovenith , being Gay should be just another aspect of them. Maybe they bring their husband to the Royal Ball, or ask their buddy if they should ask for the dude's number, or maybe not bring it up at all.
[8:45 PM] Giovenith: Yup. No minority wants to feel pitied.(edited)
[8:46 PM] Cer: I don't see many believable trans or LGBT characters on NS. That sounds mean. However, when I encounter these characters while browsing threads, I see a shallow individual. I don't believe they are "real". Instead, I see a Plasticine thing lacking any depth beyond "I'm this!" The same can be said for other types of characters as well.
[8:46 PM] moka: AMEN to that
[8:46 PM] Cer: I don't want to reward players for 2D bullshit.
[8:46 PM] Kyrusia: Question #9: As far as gender is concerned, how well received or common would you say crossed gendered RPing is? (not sure if that's the right term) But for example, like a male player playing many female characters over male ones and vice versa in their RPs. (Asked by Ched.)
[8:46 PM] Gren: I agree, Cer. That's why I'm really in favor of the workshop idea. To help players get past that.
[8:47 PM] Tilt: Q9. Oh boy, Ched. Cross playing is pretty common and I've never seen anyone raise an eyebrow.
[8:47 PM] Tilt: And you know I do that often.
[8:47 PM] Gren: Q9: I see it a lot. There's a lot of characters who are women, and the predominant gender demographic on NS is "dude".
[8:48 PM] Zwangzug: I think it's fairly well-received in the sports realm anyway, if not super common. It helps that we often RP many characters at a time, so it's somewhat common to have maybe a few of a different gender from the RPer.
[8:48 PM] Zwangzug: (Yes, men and women can play alongside each other in the NationStates football World Cup! :smile: )
[8:48 PM] moka: Question 9: I am a dude, but I have plently of female characters in my nation. Honestly, the best way to do it, at least for me: Design a character, and then once it is all done, flip a coin if it is male or female. Gender is pretty arbitrary stat.
[8:49 PM] Gren: I roll a d6 instead.
[8:49 PM] Giovenith: Q9: I've never seen anyone have a problem with it in principle. The only real issue I've felt is when the player plays the character stereotypically - I have a vivid memory that I bring up often of just groaning at a scene of a bunch of male players having their female characters sit around and talk for a considerable time about bra sizes. That... that's not a thing, oh my god. I haven't seen much of an instance with female players stereotyping male characters, but I'm sure it happens.
[8:49 PM] moka: ....what?
[8:49 PM] Giovenith: Yeah, that happened.
[8:49 PM] Kyrusia: [Just to add comment: or when they play a character of another gender for the purposes of vapid wish fulfillment.](edited)
[8:49 PM] moka: shakes head
[8:49 PM] Cer: That's why we need it, Gren. It would greatly help players.
Q8 This is a difficult one. I've seen female players roll their eyes over "lesbian sex" and cheap portrayals of women. "This isn't how we [lesbians] act! This isn't how we [women] approach life!" In P2TM, we have a big issue with men playing anime girls, and how those characters are received by female players.
[8:51 PM] Gren: Clearly, women only exist to fulfill dudes fantasies. /sarcasm(edited)
[8:51 PM] moka: I do see a lot of women being protrayed as "Super sexy" regardless of job or title, people can be average looking or even unattractive, but outside beauty shouldn't be an easy indicator of good/bad or nice/mean.
[8:51 PM] Cer: Followup to that, Kyru. Sometimes RP is a good way for a transperson to explore their gender. They might be young and in a male body, but identify as female, for example. This allows them to "try out" things without risking family or real life social disdain. There's nothing wrong with this, provided the player keeps in mind that self-insert characters are not a good idea, nor healthy in the long-run.(edited)
[8:52 PM] Kyrusia: [ I was more speaking of the not-exactly-uncommon issue of a male player playing a female character for the purposes of, "OMG BOOBS." ]
[8:53 PM] Cer: [ I know. :stuck_out_tongue: I was championing a cause! CHAMPIONING!]
[8:53 PM] Giovenith: "OMG BOOBS" - so simple, yet so freaking accurate.
[8:53 PM] Kyrusia: Question #10: What are the pros and cons of playing as a nation comprised of a majority of individuals that are considered "non-human"? Is it concerning that players who do play these sorts of settings are underrepresented in the NS RP community? (Playstyle; asked by Sailor.)
[8:54 PM] Kyrusia: Also, note: less than ten minutes remain in this panel's hour slot. We may continue in blocks of 15-minute overtime at the leisure and pleasure of our panelists.(edited)
[8:55 PM] moka: to go back to 9 really fast: One thing to remember while RPing a woman, is that being viewed as 'OMG BOOBS' is an issue women face. It may be annoying, or even scary depending on what kind of character is oggling them. Not every woman is going to feel flattered every time some guys comment's on their arse or 'good lookin body'
[8:55 PM] Gren: Q10: I wouldn't say concerning, and I've seen a decent amount of non-humans. I feel its a good way to explore not only the possibilites of other forms of life, but to also hold up as a mirror to better examine human nature.
[8:55 PM] Zwangzug: I wouldn't say that it's a concern, given the issues canon seems to treat most nations as human I don't have a lot of serious experience with this, but I'd say you need to either do a lot of creative worldbuilding on your own to avoid cheap ripoffs from existing franchises, work in contexts where most nations are on the same level regardless of RP potential, or find an RPing group that's willing to go with your style (which sounds hard and isn't something I've done.)
[8:55 PM] Giovenith: Q10: Honestly, it depends on what you're playing. Certain species are more pushed out of the community than others. Animal-anthros and ponies for example are often boldly displayed on players' and OPs' "WILL NOT ACCEPT" lists. Humanoid species have a better time. We obviously can't make people play with anyone they don't want to, but I think it would do good to remind others that ultimately it is characterization and personality that one clicks with most while playing and not species.
[8:56 PM] Maltropia: Q10 - (hi, I'm Mal, I make maps) - It's pretty darned hard to write as non-humans in the predominating hard-MT setting of most of NS RP.
[8:56 PM] Cer: Q10 Most fun ever. I thrive on playing the "forgottens" as well as the "aliens".
For me, FT allows me to play aliens. It's actually an easy process because Western thought is foreign to me. By exploring and developing their culture, I'm forced to examine real world cultures. I have to think outside the box if I don't want "a guy in a rubber suit".
And if I keep on this subject, we'll be here until midnight. Sorry.
[8:57 PM] Tilt: Q10. Not really familiar with RPing such a nation or its challenges.
[8:59 PM] moka: Question 10: Non humans, I fully support the idea of non-human RP. Just be aware that not everyone else does. It might be my MT/PMT background, but as Maltropia said, it is darn hard to make it work. Ponies and Nekos being the most common I have seen, you just need to find people who are ok with that to RP with. and as someone else said, it is all about characterization. I am sure we have all seen enough sci-fi and enjoyed for characters that are non human, becuase we were given a chance to learn who they are as a person
[8:59 PM] Cer: ^
[9:00 PM] Kyrusia: Question #11: What's your favorite alien or fantasy race you've made, and why? (Asked by Ched.)
[9:00 PM] moka: Question 11: I've made? Nothing that saw the light of day or even dared to post online... .
[9:01 PM] Kyrusia: (I'll get my FT hooks in you one day, Moka. One day...)
[9:01 PM] Giovenith: Q11: I haven't really made up a unique race, just variations of existing races. I like my Giovenithian dragons for their quirky animal nature, as well as my headcanons for ancient pony society.
[9:01 PM] moka: digs deeper into the planet
[9:01 PM] Zwangzug: I only have one nonhuman race on NS, from my puppet. A species of robots who played ice hockey very well. :smiley:
[9:01 PM] Zwangzug: *Actually that's technically not true but they're the only ones I've done anything of substance with on the forums so we'll go with that.
[9:02 PM] Tilt: Q11. I've never had a unique race. The most I could say I've done is making a crazy sentient rabbit.
[9:02 PM] Giovenith: But I love the crazy sentient rabbit. :3
[9:02 PM] Tilt: :smile:
[9:02 PM] Tilt: TY!
[9:02 PM] moka: Q11: in MT/PMR RPs, I do like adopting other people's races and uniqueness into my own cultural melting pot, even Nekos and other unique races are given a home in the PUF. I just often talk about to their creators to make sure I am portraiying their people right
[9:03 PM] Cer: Q11 For Nation-play, my Thade. Six-legged space weasels with warped humor. For non-nation RP, probably my colony of atomic kittens.
[9:03 PM] Kyrusia: Question #12: If you are someone from a unique culture, ethnicity, orientation, etc, do you feel you're treated fairly and equally in the RP forums? (Provided by Cer.)
[9:05 PM] Gren: Q12: I generally feel like people do treat me fairly and equally, at least in the RP side of things, although I do get the nagging suspicion sometimes that some people are going well out of their way to avoid offending me (though I'm pretty hard to offend in the first place).
[9:05 PM] Tilt: Q12. How unique is unique? I can't say that I qualify.
[9:05 PM] Giovenith: Q12: I've never discriminated against or put down. Then again, I don't exactly go around airing the details of my identity - people often assume I'm a somewhat effeminate, nerdy young man before figuring out I'm a girl. Maybe if I was more obvious about it I would feel differently, but as of right now, things have been pretty smooth.
👍2
[9:06 PM] moka: Question 12: well... I mean, my ethnic background doesn't get too much attention on the forums, but when it does, it seems... mostly respectable. Honestly, the hardest part is the being ethnicly one thing and culturally another, which is something I don't see very often. Why not have an Asian with a texan accent? or a ethnic Russian who was born and raised in Rio?
[9:06 PM] Cer: Q12 As a player, yes. I'm treated fairly and equally. Then again, most don't know my orientation nor my other traits. I don't broadcast it often outside my own groups. My culture, not so much. However, I attribute that to a lack of quality exposure to it rather than purposeful intent.
[9:07 PM] Tilt: Intriguing, moka.
[9:08 PM] Gren: Q12 part 2: Like, I'm not saying people should be more disrespectful. But I think most people will recognize that attitude some people have, when they're trying to be as non-offensive as possible (almost like the social equivalent of trying to avoid stepping on broken glass), even when they wouldn't be offensive if they just acted normally.
[9:08 PM] moka: It is a side effect of a "melting pot" or diverse culture that is often overlooked, in general, not even just the forums.
[9:09 PM] FRFS: Q12: I would hope the level of respect and report between cultures and ethnicities on the forums are getting better. Everyone deserves to have a fun time and feel like they belong here. That we can all have some fun with our creations, no matter where we come from. Also. Hi everyone.
[9:09 PM] moka: What gren said.
[9:09 PM] Cer: nod "Deer in headlights", for some. I've had players ask me if a trans player was offended over the wrong pronoun usage. ("Go ask them. I'm not your mediator!")
[9:09 PM] moka: hi frfs
[9:09 PM] Kyrusia: Question #13: What are some ways a player can portray discrimination that is relevant to current events, but does not default to simple caricature on the part of either given "side" of the debate or argument?
[9:09 PM] Tilt: o/ frfs
[9:10 PM] Tilt: Q13. Relevant to current events? I'm wary of this.
[9:10 PM] Kyrusia: For the record, this will be our final question for this panel.
[9:11 PM] Gren: Q13: I think I covered this earlier, is to give it nuance.
Give all sides assholes. Give all sides positive characters.(edited)
[9:12 PM] Zwangzug: CharacterS. Plural, I think is the thing to emphasize. Don't put all the eggs in one basket.
[9:13 PM] moka: Question 13: skipping the 'current events' aspect of this question, the best way to protray discrimination without sounding one sided is to explore what created that discrimination in the first place. It is often more than just "We hate them" or "They are taking are jerbs". any times cultures mix, there will be misunderstandings, and accidental offfenses. While it may be polite to not finish a meal in one culture("You fed me so much I can't finish, thank you") another might take offense to that("This food is terrible, I tried to be polite but damn... I just can't)
[9:13 PM] moka: often times it starts with a breakdown in communication, and then snowballs down from there
[9:13 PM] FRFS: Q13: that's really tough. You have to remain in an artistic fashion. I mean there are dozens of movies, books, and theater plays that deal with sensitive moments of discrimination and prejudice against relevant things that find real high acclaim. It's hard to know what "doing it right" is though. Because you're right, it's hard to remain subjective and not look like you're taking a side or picking on someone. Really is comes down to how you feel about it. If you feel like you're making fun of someone or doing something distastefully, you probably are. Take a step back and think about what you are trying to do, if you can make yourself okay with what you wrote, you're probably moving in the right direction.
[9:14 PM] Cer: Q13 Protestors are faceless, a throng. People care about the old black woman holding a sign at a protest, speaking from her heart as she recalls her past trials. You have to humanize discrimination in order for readers to feel any empathy (or ignorance/apathy) towards it in your story. You have to get under its thick hide and discover the microcosms of the community, both sides of it, if you want to portray it with any accuracy.
"I hate x!" isn't an answer. Why? What caused the bigotry? What fuels it? You can't wrap it all up in a blanket and call it a story element if you haven't taken the time to research the unique bits of it.(edited)
[9:15 PM] FRFS: Q13:Maybe find someone you respect to look at what you've done, and ask their opinion on it. More eyes that see what you do, can give you real good perspective that you may not have.
[9:18 PM] moka: If you do want to try to get into Current events, understand that there are people out there who will be turned off and hate it, for simply not presenting their side in the best light. They will be vocal about it, and it doesn't matter which side, both sides always have their loud minorities. Any time you address current issues, you are walking an extremely fine line.
[9:18 PM] Giovenith: Q13: It's not easy. It takes a certain careful empathy, the ability to understand other points of views without agreeing with them or becoming overly frustrated. A big thing you want to avoid is portraying these people as angry, irrational lunatics right off the bat - that's a common trap. I said this before, although there are no good reasons for prejudice there are understandable reasons. J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" series was famously all about fantastical discrimination, the discrimination against wizards born to human parents. In the villains' eyes, such wizards had "stolen" magic that wasn't rightfully theirs by not being part of a wizard family. Humans in their eyes were also worth subjugation, which while one might not agree with, it's easy to see why one would think that because, you know... not having magical powers kind of sucks.
[9:18 PM] Maltropia: Just as an aside, since this question is mostly being answered from a different angle, moving the goalposts to an entirely different pitch used to be the way to shine a light on an injustice without doing so in so many words. Rather than "Rosa Parks won't give up her bus seat," it was "Alien Zibzob won't get off the hypershuttle." Removing it entirely from peoples preconceived notions of right and wrong (e.g. removing the object of their subconscious racism) can help to more clearly expose the injustices being perpetrated.
[9:18 PM] Kyrusia: Thank you all for your time and contributions this evening. Hopefully our audience found such both enlightening and entertaining.
NS Roleplay Symposium 2017
TOPIC: "Diversity in the Roleplaying Community"
TIME: COMPLETED
Our next panels for Monday will tentatively be as follows:
OP Management and Running a Roleplay (Early Hour Panel) — 12PM Eastern/4PM GMT
Conflict Resolution and Out-of-Character Drama (Late Hour Panel) — 7PM Eastern/11PM GMT
Observations on Gameplay — 9PM Eastern/1AM GMT
Hope to see all of you then!
[9:11 PM] Gren: Q13: I think I covered this earlier, is to give it nuance.
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